Agent Patient Word Order

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hadad
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Agent Patient Word Order

Post by hadad » 15 Sep 2013 23:33

Is there any precedant for Agent Patient Word orders among natlangs?

If not, it is to be declared the defining feature of a PaleoCaspian language. No clue how such a word order could arise, I just picked it because I liked it.
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gach
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Re: Agent Patient Word Order

Post by gach » 16 Sep 2013 01:08

Could you specify a bit what you mean with "agent" and "patient" in this context and does the agent-patient order differ from the plain old SO word order? The example sentence you give in the PreProtoPaleoCaspian A thread fits perfectly fine into the SVO word order without any quirky definitions of agent and patient.
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hadad
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Re: Agent Patient Word Order

Post by hadad » 16 Sep 2013 15:21

gach wrote:Could you specify a bit what you mean with "agent" and "patient" in this context and does the agent-patient order differ from the plain old SO word order? The example sentence you give in the PreProtoPaleoCaspian A thread fits perfectly fine into the SVO word order without any quirky definitions of agent and patient.
It overlaps with the SVO word order, yes, but is not the same. Just as the agent and patient relationship is similar to the subject and object relationship, but not the same.

The dog bit me. - Is SVO, and AVP word ordered.
I was bitten by the dog - Is SVO, but PVA word ordered.

Basically, the Agent is merged with the Active voice, whereas the Patient is Mediopassive. If you want to look at it that way, in a context that's easy to explain in an IE way. Though the Agent has a sense of "intention", whereas the Patient can be used to describe scenarios where you can "passively do" something. Like "I know" would put "I" as a patient in PPPCA.
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Micamo
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Re: Agent Patient Word Order

Post by Micamo » 22 Sep 2013 22:22

hadad wrote:
gach wrote:Could you specify a bit what you mean with "agent" and "patient" in this context and does the agent-patient order differ from the plain old SO word order? The example sentence you give in the PreProtoPaleoCaspian A thread fits perfectly fine into the SVO word order without any quirky definitions of agent and patient.
It overlaps with the SVO word order, yes, but is not the same. Just as the agent and patient relationship is similar to the subject and object relationship, but not the same.

The dog bit me. - Is SVO, and AVP word ordered.
I was bitten by the dog - Is SVO, but PVA word ordered.

Basically, the Agent is merged with the Active voice, whereas the Patient is Mediopassive. If you want to look at it that way, in a context that's easy to explain in an IE way. Though the Agent has a sense of "intention", whereas the Patient can be used to describe scenarios where you can "passively do" something. Like "I know" would put "I" as a patient in PPPCA.
So you mean there's no passive voice construction? Plenty of natlangs work like that.
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Xonen
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Re: Agent Patient Word Order

Post by Xonen » 24 Sep 2013 14:07

hadad wrote:I was bitten by the dog - Is SVO, but PVA word ordered.
Strictly speaking, it's SV with no object... But yes, one of the most important functions of the passive in many IE langs is to promote the patient to the subject.

Anyway, if I'm understanding things correctly, what you're going for could perhaps be described as a split-S language with the agent and patient marked by word order rather than explicit case marking? The Wikipedia article appears to imply that this is attested in natlangs...
Languages lacking case inflections may indicate case with different word orders, using adpositions, etc. For example, the patientive argument might precede the verb, while the agentive argument might follow.
...but AFAICT, mentions no examples. In any case, it's probably rare - but seems plausible enough.

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Re: Agent Patient Word Order

Post by hadad » 25 Sep 2013 22:08

Micamo wrote:
hadad wrote:
gach wrote:Could you specify a bit what you mean with "agent" and "patient" in this context and does the agent-patient order differ from the plain old SO word order? The example sentence you give in the PreProtoPaleoCaspian A thread fits perfectly fine into the SVO word order without any quirky definitions of agent and patient.
It overlaps with the SVO word order, yes, but is not the same. Just as the agent and patient relationship is similar to the subject and object relationship, but not the same.

The dog bit me. - Is SVO, and AVP word ordered.
I was bitten by the dog - Is SVO, but PVA word ordered.

Basically, the Agent is merged with the Active voice, whereas the Patient is Mediopassive. If you want to look at it that way, in a context that's easy to explain in an IE way. Though the Agent has a sense of "intention", whereas the Patient can be used to describe scenarios where you can "passively do" something. Like "I know" would put "I" as a patient in PPPCA.
So you mean there's no passive voice construction? Plenty of natlangs work like that.
With pronouns and case suffixes there are, but not in the verb at all. I used the suffixes because the word order can change depending on whether a sentance is a question or not.
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