Germanic reflexes

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Prinsessa
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by Prinsessa » 02 Feb 2015 11:54

I would be careful about making the Swedish transcriptions that specific so long as they remain between slashes for broad transcription (which should be able to cover more dialectal variations) and save specifics for individual dialectal forms written between brackets for narrow transcription. Doesn't using that sort of model rub you the wrong way too (based on the opinions I've seen you express in the Scandinavian section)? :c Especially since you're asking for dialects at the bottom. You should at least specify what type of Swedish you mean (for the sake of non-natives), m'thinks.

Interesting thread anyhow. Would be even neater to see some weirder examples. Perhaps you should bring in translations as well, so that we can spot any instances of semantic drift?

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ol bofosh
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by ol bofosh » 02 Feb 2015 12:18

*stainaz
stɜʉ̯n

*hūsą
hæʊ̯s

*deupaz
dɪi̯pʰ ~ dɪi̯ʔ͡p̚

*eka(n)
ɐɪ̯

*tīdiz
tʰɐɪ̯d̚

*ja
:eng: /jæ/

Not sure about that example. What is it, yes/yeah/yep?
In which case...
jɛs
jɛ(ː) ~ jɛʔ͡p̚ ~ jɛʔ

Prinsessa
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by Prinsessa » 02 Feb 2015 13:19

It's yea(h).

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k1234567890y
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by k1234567890y » 03 Feb 2015 01:46

*hertô

West-Germanic(I personally doubt that there were probably an alternative form *hartô~*harta among West Germanic languages of the North Sea):

English heart /'hɑɹt/(GA)

Dutch hart /'hɑrt/

Standard German Herz /'hɛʁts/

North-Germanic:

Icelandic hjarta /ˈçar̥ta/

Faroese hjarta /ˈjaɹ̥ʈa/

Danish hjerte /jɛrtə/([ˈjæɐ̯d̥ə])

Swedish hjärta /jæʈːa/
...

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HinGambleGoth
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by HinGambleGoth » 03 Feb 2015 09:58

Prinsessa wrote:I would be careful about making the Swedish transcriptions that specific so long as they remain between slashes for broad transcription (which should be able to cover more dialectal variations) and save specifics for individual dialectal forms written between brackets for narrow transcription. Doesn't using that sort of model rub you the wrong way too (based on the opinions I've seen you express in the Scandinavian section)? :c Especially since you're asking for dialects at the bottom. You should at least specify what type of Swedish you mean (for the sake of non-natives), m'thinks.
We do have flags for most swedish dialects, i chose the basic swedish flag to represent central standard Swedish

*stainaz
:se-og: steən

*hūsą
:se-og: hɛʉs

*deupaz
:se-og: jɛʉpʰ

*eka(n)
:se-og: jɒɑ

*tīdiz
:se-og: tʰɛɪ
Last edited by HinGambleGoth on 03 Feb 2015 19:53, edited 1 time in total.
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
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Prinsessa
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by Prinsessa » 03 Feb 2015 12:37

k1234567890y wrote:Swedish hjärta /jæʈːa/
I don't think the rule of pronouncing <ä> as [æ] before /r/ applies before retroflexes in words where they are not the result of productive sandhi but have the /rC/ in the stem, thereby "freezing" the retroflex, does it? Shouldn't it be /jɛʈ(ː)a/?

My dialect doesn't have that allophony before /r/ tho so I might be wrong.

Either way I'd just write /rt/ between slashes myself, but yeah. You're kind of following that principle for German, aren't you? Writing /ʁ/ tho it's actually a vowel [ɐ̯]– much like the narrow Danish transcribed below – in the "standard". So why not for Swedish? Pretty sure it's a reasonably standardised convention not to broadly transcribe retroflexes in Swedish, anyway.
k1234567890y wrote:Faroese hjarta /ˈjaɹ̥ʈa/
Just noting here that the rhotic is retroflex on the surface in these clusters.
Last edited by Prinsessa on 05 Feb 2015 13:01, edited 2 times in total.

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k1234567890y
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by k1234567890y » 04 Feb 2015 23:16

Prinsessa wrote:
k1234567890y wrote:Swedish hjärta /jæʈːa/
I don't think the rule of pronouncing <ä> as [æ] before /r/ applies before retroflexes in words where they are not the result of productive sandhi but have the /rC/ in the stem, thereby "freezing" the retroflex, does it? Shouldn't it be /jɛʈ(ː)a/?

Either way I'd just write /rt/ between slashes myself, but yeah. You're kind of following that principle for German, aren't you? Writing /ʁ/ tho it's actually a vowel [ɐ̯]– much like the narrow Danish transcribed below – in the "standard". So why not for Swedish? Pretty sure it's a reasonably standardised convention not to broadly transcribe retroflexes in Swedish, anyway.
k1234567890y wrote:Faroese hjarta /ˈjaɹ̥ʈa/
Just noting here that the rhotic is retroflex on the surface in these clusters.
ok... just took them from wiktionary and some sources by googleing...
...

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HinGambleGoth
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by HinGambleGoth » 24 May 2015 16:26

Germanic short /a/ as like *bakanaN (bake) and *gab, (gave) this vowel lengthened and took part in the great medieval vowel shifts in most of the Germanic languages.

:eng: /eɪ/
:deu: /a:/
:nld: /a:/
:dan: /æ:/
:swe: /ɑ:/
:nor: /ä:/
:se-sk2: /au/
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Adarain
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by Adarain » 05 Jul 2015 15:51

HinGambleGoth wrote: *stainaz

*hūsą

*deupaz

*eka(n)

*tīdiz

*ja
In my dialect of :sui: -German:
ʃtaɪ
huːs
tːyːf
iː, -ɪ
t͡siːtː
jɔː
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

Bristel
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by Bristel » 07 Jul 2015 02:41

Adding some Old Saxon/OLG reflexes. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

*stainaz

:OS: stên /stɛːn/

*hūsą

:OS: hūs /huːs/

*deupaz

:OS: diop /djɔp/

*eka(n)

:OS: ik /ɪk/

*tīdiz

:OS: tīd /tiːd/


*ja

:OS: /jaː/
[bɹ̠ˤʷɪs.təɫ]
Nōn quālibet inīqua cupiditāte illectus hōc agō.
[tiː.mɔ.tʉɥs god.lɐf hɑwk]

Br0shaan
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by Br0shaan » 30 Jul 2015 18:23

Luleå-Bondska
stein /steɪ̯n/
heos /he̯us/
diop /dɪ̯up/
jö /jø/
töyd /tøʏ̯d/
jå /jo/

Överkalix-Bondska
stain /staɪ̯n/
häos /he̯us/
diop /dɪ̯up/
ji /ji/
täid /teɪ̯d/
jäo /je̯u/

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HinGambleGoth
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by HinGambleGoth » 31 Jul 2015 17:57

which/witch

*hw and *w

:eng: /ʍ/ <wh> ongoing merger.
:deu: /v/ <w> pre literary merger.
:nld: /ʋ/ <w> pre literary merger.
:vls: /w/ <w> pre literary merger.
:fry: /v/ <w> merged during the late middle ages.
:de-ni: /v/ <w> merged in Middle low german.
:dan: /ʋ/ <hv> merged in standard danish, still /ʍ/ in jutish dialects.
:fao: :nor: /kv/ <hv> <kv> sharpened and merged with *kw
:isl: /kv/ <hv> still /xw/ in northern dialect.
:swe: /v/ <hv> (before 1906) merged in the 18th century.
:elf: /w/ <w> likely merged when h was dropped elsewhwere.

*fixed icelandic /kv/
Last edited by HinGambleGoth on 31 Jul 2015 18:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Adarain
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Re: Germanic reflexes

Post by Adarain » 31 Jul 2015 18:06

‹hv› in standard icelandic is /kv/
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

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