Orthographic quirks in natlangs

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by cntrational » 05 Sep 2015 22:03

Re: Polish

http://steen.free.fr/cyrpol/
http://steen.free.fr/poilschi/

A conlanger's hypotheticals for a cyrillic and romance-based orthography for Polish and Wenedyk, his Polish romlang.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by GrandPiano » 08 Sep 2015 06:05

sangi39 wrote:I assume GrandPiano's mow vs. mountain example was supposed to represent a point which would have been made better as cow vs. mountain...
thetha wrote:mow and mountain have different vowel qualities so that's a bad example.
Dormouse559 wrote:Or, to keep things as similar as possible, "cow" vs. "count".
Yes, "cow" vs. "count" is probably a better example. Come to think of it, Middle English's <ow> /uː/ is pretty weird.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 08 Sep 2015 09:48

Is it weird that I kept reading "mow" as /maʊ/ since that fit the word "mountain"'s pronunciation?
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by cntrational » 08 Sep 2015 11:04

GrandPiano wrote:Yes, "cow" vs. "count" is probably a better example. Come to think of it, Middle English's <ow> /uː/ is pretty weird.
Middle English /u:/ was written ‹ou›. French orthography. After it shifted to a diphthong, they respelt it ow word-finally. (Tolkien mimicked this with Sindarin au being respelt aw word-finally.)

Not to mention that u/v/w weren't distinct letters until later.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Egerius » 08 Sep 2015 11:21

cntrational wrote:Not to mention that u/v/w weren't distinct letters until later.
<V> <u> were not distinct, but <uu ~ w> was.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by cntrational » 08 Sep 2015 11:23

But that was after the Normans conquered England.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Birdlang » 18 Oct 2015 21:33

What about all those natlangs that have w or v as a vowel? Examples include Rawang, Hmong, Creek, Welsh, Kanum and Cornish.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by opipik » 18 Oct 2015 21:49

Birdlang wrote:What about all those natlangs that have w or v as a vowel? Examples include Rawang, Hmong, Creek, Welsh, Kanum and Cornish.
Kanum
what?

Also Nalca used y and v for ɪ and ʊ.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 18 Oct 2015 21:56

IIRC, Cherokee uses <v> for a nasalized schwa... But that isn't the native script, so that probably has a lot more to do with typography of the era in which Cherokee was described by linguists.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Birdlang » 19 Oct 2015 20:14

I said Kanum because a Wikipedia article used that for some dialect for a central vowel.
Ohhhh it is y as a vowel for something.
Last edited by Birdlang on 21 Oct 2015 20:17, edited 1 time in total.
Ꭓꭓ Ʝʝ Ɬɬ Ɦɦ Ɡɡ Ɥɥ Ɫɫ Ɽɽ Ɑɑ Ɱɱ Ɐɐ Ɒɒ Ɓɓ Ɔɔ Ɖɖ Ɗɗ Əə Ɛɛ Ɠɠ Ɣɣ Ɯɯ Ɲɲ Ɵɵ Ʀʀ Ʃʃ Ʈʈ Ʊʊ Ʋʋ Ʒʒ Ꞵꞵ Ʉʉ Ʌʌ Ŋŋ Ɂɂ Ɪɪ Ææ Øø Ð𠌜 Ɜɜ Ǝɘ

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by GrandPiano » 19 Oct 2015 20:25

I don't know if romanizations count, but Pinyin, the standard romanization system for Mandarin, uses <ü> for /y/ and /ɥ/ after /n/ and /l/ (the only consonants after which they contrast with /u/ and /w/), and when diacritics are inconvenient to type, the tone diacritics are often replaced with numbers and <ü> is often replaced with <v> (which is the only letter in the Latin alphabet not officially used in Pinyin), so 女 /ny˨˩˦/ "female" can either be romanized as <nǚ> or <nv3>, and 绿 /ly˥˩/ "green" can either be romanized as <lǜ> or <lv4>.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by opipik » 19 Oct 2015 20:28

Birdlang wrote:I said Kanum because a Wikipedia article used that for some dialect for a central vowel.
Do you have a link?

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by opipik » 10 Jun 2016 11:34

Kuni-Boazi: <æ ø> /ɛː ʌ/

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Xonen » 11 Jun 2016 00:07

opipik wrote:Kuni-Boazi: <æ ø> /ɛː ʌ/
Eh. The idea of using Scandinavian characters in Papua New Guinea might be somewhat quirky, but those values strike me as perfectly intuitive.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Frislander » 11 Jun 2016 00:38

I don't know if it's a quirk but has ayone seen the Kiowa orthography? It's in the phonology article.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by opipik » 14 Jun 2016 19:51

Frislander wrote:I don't know if it's a quirk but has ayone seen the Kiowa orthography? It's in the phonology article.
It's already there.

Sam: /ɲ ʔ/ <ɳ x>
Washkuk: /ɨ ɛ/ <ii ee>
Kire: /s̪ β/ <š b̄>

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Sglod » 25 Jun 2016 14:06

French:

aille = /aj/u
oi = /wa/
eau = /o/
ils parlent they speak = /il paʁl/
ou, où = /u/ (the accent does nothing to the pronunciation)
haie hedge = /ɛ/
Last edited by Sglod on 25 Jun 2016 14:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by clawgrip » 25 Jun 2016 14:08

French is just a giant orthographic quirk.

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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by GrandPiano » 25 Jun 2016 18:10

Sglod wrote:aille = /aj/
I think the quirk here is not <aille> /aj/ but <ill> /j/, which in this word occurs in combination with <a> /a/ and silent <e>.
Sglod wrote:haie hedge = /ɛ/
This one doesn't seem so weird if look at it as silent <h> + <ai> /ɛ/ + silent <e>.
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Re: Orthographic quirks in natlangs

Post by Shemtov » 26 Jun 2016 17:17

In most languages with a Cyrillic script that use these letters, the difference between Ү Ө and У О is that of front-back, yet in Mongolian, it's tense-lax
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