Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

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Lambuzhao
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Lambuzhao » 14 Sep 2015 16:57

@ Prinsessa -

Not to get all Thurston Howell III on you, but mayhap they pronounce it like that over yonder, but not at UPENN, which of course is the pinochle of Classical Studies in :usa:. [:|]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diaeresis

Do you have a link to an IPA example of the pronunciation/accentuation of which you speak?

:wat:

BTW the prosodic stress is supposed to be the same for synaeresis, also.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/synaeresis

:roll:

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Ephraim » 14 Sep 2015 17:55

Salmoneus wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:I'll never forget how a fellow student in a Grad Greek class had the unfortunality to pronounce the double dots over a vowel as die-a-rhesus
[cross] /daɪ.jə.ˈriː.səs/

instead of the correct diæresis:
[tick] /daɪ.ˈɛ.ɹə.sɪs/
Damn Greek. I consistently want to pronounce Greek words as though they were sane, proper words with the stress where it would be if it were Latin damnit. [Or rather: English has two totally different stress patterns for Greek words, and I instinctively assume the wrong one]. So words like 'synecdoche' and 'anabasis' and so on I instinctively want to pronounce on the first syllable, not the second.
For the most part, I think Greek words in English are stressed according to Latin stress patterns, actually, and not according to Greek. Synecdoche is a good example. The Greek συνεκδοχή is stressed on the last syllable, but in English, it is stressed on the third to last like it would be in Latin. For anabasis (ἀνάβασις), Latin and Greek agree. Same for diæresis (διαίρεσις), it would be stressed on the third to last syllable in Latin as well as Greek.

Another interesting example is Uranus (Ūranus, Οὐρανός). In Greek, it is stressed on the last syllable but I don't think English ever does this. It can be stressed either on second syllable, as you would expect it to be stressed in Latin (since many familiar Latin names end in -ānus with a long ā), or on the first syllable as it really is stressed in Latin (since this Greek loan ends in -anus with a short a).

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Lambuzhao » 15 Sep 2015 04:15

Really, it's completely understandable to find Greek prosody so GRRRRWTF.
You have words in :eng: like independence [ˌindəˈpendəns], which I pretty much pronounce with a slightly less secondary stress on the first syllable. Why don't words of Greek origin do this too, and save a lot of aggravation? Why does one have to scaffold onto ridiculous hapax legomena like Schenectedy, which isn't Greek at all, but carries that antepenultimate (esdrújulo if you're naughty [B)] ) stress [:|]

English & her exponential stress *sigh*.

On the other hand, heresy is related to diaeresis and synaeresis (in fact, the Greek for heresy is the main root of the other two words), and it gets the antepenultimate with little problem.
:wat: :?:

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Ahzoh » 15 Sep 2015 04:50

I keep spelling presence as "prescence".
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by cntrational » 15 Sep 2015 06:51

English stress is messed up since we mixed together Germanic and Latin-Romance stress patterns.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Darvince » 15 Sep 2015 07:27

oh is that why english has unpredictable stress
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HoskhMatriarch
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 15 Sep 2015 08:53

cntrational wrote:English stress is messed up since we mixed together Germanic and Latin-Romance stress patterns.
Yes, why don't we just use the Germanic stress, the Latin stress in English sounds really marked (but then, stressing all the Latinate words on the first or second syllable would also sound pretty marked since people would be like "what are you doing that's not how you say that").
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Ephraim » 15 Sep 2015 13:43

Lambuzhao wrote:Really, it's completely understandable to find Greek prosody so GRRRRWTF.
You have words in :eng: like independence [ˌindəˈpendəns], which I pretty much pronounce with a slightly less secondary stress on the first syllable. Why don't words of Greek origin do this too, and save a lot of aggravation? Why does one have to scaffold onto ridiculous hapax legomena like Schenectedy, which isn't Greek at all, but carries that antepenultimate (esdrújulo if you're naughty [B)] ) stress [:|]

English & her exponential stress *sigh*.

On the other hand, heresy is related to diaeresis and synaeresis (in fact, the Greek for heresy is the main root of the other two words), and it gets the antepenultimate with little problem.
:wat: :?:
I don't think the main difference is Latin vs. Greek loans, I think there's a difference between "direct loans" and "normanized loans" (my terms). Direct loans are closer to their Latin and/or Greek origin (which doesn't necessarily mean that they are borrowed straight from the source language into English). They often keep their spelling and most noticeably, they keep the ending, although Greek endings are often Latinized. Sometimes they even take a Latin plural. These words tend to be stressed where they would be in Latin. This is also the case for words of Greek origin, they usually follow Latin stress rules, not Greek.
Words like this include homunculus, flagellum, formula, terminus, amœba (< ἀμοιβή), dilemma (< δίλημμα), thesaurus (< θησαυρός). These are all stressed like in Latin, but not as in Greek. This category is mostly nouns, or whole phrases, I think. I don't think it includes any verbs and very few adjectives.
There may be a few examples of Classical Greek borrowings that actually follow Greek stress rules rather than Latin:
Sophia (< σοφία; Latin Sóphia), hoi polloi (< οἱ πολλοί), Alexandria (< Ἀλεξάνδρεια, Latin Alexandrī́a or Alexandrḗa)

The normanized loans are basically treated as if they were borrowed via French (and they often are). The base may be very latinate (in spelling at least) but the endings are greatly reduced, so that -itās becomes -ity, -tia and -cia becomes -cy or -ce, -us becomes -0 etc. These don't follow Latin stress rules, and like other Anglo-Norman words, they don't follow French stress rules either. I'm having trouble formulating rules for how these words are stressed, but somehow English speakers seem to perceive the stress as more natural. There is certainly a tendency towards initial stress (I think it might be especially strong in nouns) which would make them closer to the native vocabulary. But there are many exceptions and the exceptions often don't agree with Latin or French stress either. I think analogy plays a role.
Examples include: nominative (< nōminātī́vus), accusative (accūsātī́vus), Anthony (< Antṓnius), vocabulary (< vocābulā́rium), dictionary (< dictiōnā́rium), theory (< theṓria < θεωρία), history (< história < ἱστορία)

Heresy is a normanized loan, while diæresis and synæresis are direct loans. For heresy (< hǽresis < αἵρεσις), English stress actually agrees with Latin which also happens to agree with Greek. But this is probably just a coincidence. More importantly, heresy is stressed on the initial syllable.

Really, it's the normanized loans that are truly weird. Why is nominative stressed on the initial syllable but accusative on the second? Neither agrees with Latin.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Jackk » 15 Sep 2015 21:56

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Really, it's the normanized loans that are truly weird. Why is nominative stressed on the initial syllable but accusative on the second? Neither agrees with Latin.
By analogy with nominate and accuse, I would guess. Although that kinda just pushes the issue back a step...
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Ephraim » 15 Sep 2015 23:02

Jackk wrote:By analogy with nominate and accuse, I would guess. Although that kinda just pushes the issue back a step...
Yeah, something like that would be my guess as well. At least I would guess that accusative is stressed in analogy with accuse. I'm not quite sure why accuse is stressed the way it is, but I think there might be a tendency for disyllabic verbs of Latin origin to be stressed on the second syllable. That way, they behave like native verbs with an unstressed prefix. The stress does match accū́sō which would be the Latin dictionary form of a verb but that probably hasn't had much influence on the English pronuciation.

Nominative follows the pattern of other common cases ending in -tive which have initial stress: dative, genitive, ablative, allative, lative, locative, vocative, ergative. Accusative seems to be the exception (along with some more exotic cases with longer names). Swedish and (I believe) German consistently stresses these case names on the initial syllable, without any exception for the ackusativ/Akkusativ.

Apparently, ablative can also be an engineering or nautical term in which case it is pronounced /əˈbleɪ.tɪv/ according to Wiktionary. Of course, neither the grammatical nor the engineering/nautical use are stressed like the Latin ablātī́vus because that would make too much sense. But according to Wiktionary "[t]he engineering/nautical sense is a back-formation from ablate" which might explain the stress of that word.

I would also like to know why the large class of nouns in -(o)nomy and -(o)logy are stressed the way they are. They don't have initial stress like dictionary and nominative, which I guess would be the most nativized pronunciation. They also don't follow Latin stress (-(o)nómia, -(o)lógia) or Greek stress (-(ο)νομία, (ο)λογία), or for that matter French. I don't think any other European language agrees with English.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 17 Sep 2015 06:16

Ephraim wrote:
Jackk wrote: Swedish and (I believe) German consistently stresses these case names on the initial syllable, without any exception for the ackusativ/Akkusativ.
Yes: https://de.wiktionary.org/wiki/Akkusativ The secondary stress is weird though, because it has a secondary stress on the last syllable that makes it sound clearly not native.
Ephraim wrote:I would also like to know why the large class of nouns in -(o)nomy and -(o)logy are stressed the way they are. They don't have initial stress like dictionary and nominative, which I guess would be the most nativized pronunciation. They also don't follow Latin stress (-(o)nómia, -(o)lógia) or Greek stress (-(ο)νομία, (ο)λογία), or for that matter French. I don't think any other European language agrees with English.
Yeah, that's super weird. Why exactly is the -o- the part that's stressed? If I make up some fake words like potted-plantology and desklamponomy they are stressed on the -o-, which is the part in Latin or Greek that's just a linking element when it's present at all. In German all the -(o)nomie and -(o)logie words are stressed like French on the other hand, which can make technical German sound more like French than English ever does (English never keeps French pronunciations when borrowing their words, [kʰɹɔɪ̯sänt] yay so French-sounding).
Lambuzhao wrote:Really, it's completely understandable to find Greek prosody so GRRRRWTF.
You have words in :eng: like independence [ˌindəˈpendəns], which I pretty much pronounce with a slightly less secondary stress on the first syllable. Why don't words of Greek origin do this too, and save a lot of aggravation? Why does one have to scaffold onto ridiculous hapax legomena like Schenectedy, which isn't Greek at all, but carries that antepenultimate (esdrújulo if you're naughty [B)] ) stress [:|]
Well, it's spelled with an sch- like school and schism, so it must be Greek, right? Actually, I pronounced that as [ʃəˈnɛktədi] before I saw how it was actually pronounced, so I don't think my pronounciation had a whole lot to do with Greek... Although, I think it the pronouncation of this word has to do with words like connect and elect and select and defect that are stressed on the syllable of the <ect>, so in this case it's schenect (note to self: that's not [ʃəˈnɛkt]) + -edy, which is like -ity.
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by cntrational » 17 Sep 2015 06:32

I've seen /kwɔsan/ a lot.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Dormouse559 » 17 Sep 2015 08:28

/kɹəˈsɑnt/ over here. [kʰɹɔɪ̯sänt] sounds very weird to me.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by shimobaatar » 17 Sep 2015 09:00

cntrational wrote:I've seen /kwɔsan/ a lot.
Dormouse559 wrote:/kɹəˈsɑnt/ over here. [kʰɹɔɪ̯sänt] sounds very weird to me.
[+1] Although I definitely hear something like /kɹəˈsɑnt/ the most often, I've also heard things like /kwɔsan/, but I don't think I can say I've ever heard anyone say [kʰɹɔɪ̯sänt] (well, outside of a context where they were clearly joking).

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by cntrational » 17 Sep 2015 09:03

yeah i say /kɹəˈsɑnt/ too, thinking about it

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Salmoneus » 17 Sep 2015 12:43

Huh. I say ["kwasQ~] with a short [a], and slight rhoticisation of the /w/. Is that not people normally say it? [I do sometimes hear it with final /t/]

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Prinsessa » 17 Sep 2015 13:04

Carl from Jimmy Neutron says KWASAAAA at least.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Dormouse559 » 17 Sep 2015 18:03

Salmoneus wrote:Huh. I say ["kwasQ~] with a short [a], and slight rhoticisation of the /w/. Is that not people normally say it? [I do sometimes hear it with final /t/]
Well, I can't say it's common in my experience, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear it.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Ephraim » 17 Sep 2015 18:05

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Yeah, that's super weird. Why exactly is the -o- the part that's stressed? If I make up some fake words like potted-plantology and desklamponomy they are stressed on the -o-, which is the part in Latin or Greek that's just a linking element when it's present at all.
This linking vowel is stressed in some Greek words, both in Greek itself and when brought into Latin. Greek μονόλογος would be an example, latinized as monólogus. Compare διάλογος > diálogus and ἀνάλογος > análogus. So it would be tempting to think that the English stress in analogy is in analogy with análogus. But of course, the word analog(ue) (< análogus via French) actually has initial stress!
(It also turns out that analogy is older in English than analog(ue), but dialog(ue) is quite old.)

For this particular group of word, there does seem to be a pattern of antepenultimate stress: ánalog(ue) > análogy > analógical. Why, I have no idea. You do of course see this type of stress shift in both Greek and Latin but English pretty consistently does not follow either of those languages. If you add a non-classical ending, there is no stress-shift: analógically. Also, English does not seem to have a problem with stressing syllables before the antepenult in latinate words:
vocabulary, nominative, dictionary
(Assuming you pronounce the words carefully; loss of vowel may very well cause the words to have antepenultimate or perhaps even penultimate stress, but surely the loss of unstressed vowels is caused by lack of stress and not the other way around)

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Adarain » 18 Sep 2015 00:00

Y'all are silly, "croissant" is pronounced ['kɪp͡falɪ]. Also, how about we just stress the initial syllable everywhere, surely that'd solve all of our problems. Right? (are there any dialects that regularize english stress patterns?)
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

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