Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

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Sumelic
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Sumelic » 18 Sep 2015 05:42

Ephraim wrote: The normanized loans are basically treated as if they were borrowed via French (and they often are). The base may be very latinate (in spelling at least) but the endings are greatly reduced, so that -itās becomes -ity, -tia and -cia becomes -cy or -ce, -us becomes -0 etc. These don't follow Latin stress rules, and like other Anglo-Norman words, they don't follow French stress rules either. I'm having trouble formulating rules for how these words are stressed, but somehow English speakers seem to perceive the stress as more natural. There is certainly a tendency towards initial stress (I think it might be especially strong in nouns) which would make them closer to the native vocabulary. But there are many exceptions and the exceptions often don't agree with Latin or French stress either. I think analogy plays a role.
Examples include: nominative (< nōminātī́vus), accusative (accūsātī́vus), Anthony (< Antṓnius), vocabulary (< vocābulā́rium), dictionary (< dictiōnā́rium), theory (< theṓria < θεωρία), history (< história < ἱστορία)

Heresy is a normanized loan, while diæresis and synæresis are direct loans. For heresy (< hǽresis < αἵρεσις), English stress actually agrees with Latin which also happens to agree with Greek. But this is probably just a coincidence. More importantly, heresy is stressed on the initial syllable.

Really, it's the normanized loans that are truly weird. Why is nominative stressed on the initial syllable but accusative on the second? Neither agrees with Latin.
I believe for most of the Normanized loans, the antepenult stress is due to a shift from older final stress (that I think can be seen in Chaucer etc.) by means of alternating strong-weak syllables.

So "charitee," etc., stressed on the last syllable, gets a secondary stress on the third-to-last syllable. Then that secondary stress becomes the primary stress. This kind of stress-shift back two syllables from the French position also explains "analogue," "analogy," "analogical" (and also "monologue" and the rest of the "-ologies" and "onomies.")

I think the same shift also occurred in "nominate," "nominative," "vocabulary," even though these aren't directly from French. (Compare "relate" and the like, where there was no antepenult syllable to receive secondary stress so the stress remained on the ult.)

What's unclear to me is when the original stress becomes secondary stress, or when it becomes completely unstressed in modern English.
It's completely unstressed in "charity" and "nominative," but secondarily stressed in "vocabulary." It's secondarily stressed in all antepenult-stressed verbs ending in "ate," but completely unstressed in (almost?) all antepenult-stressed nouns ending in "ate." For some classes of words, like "inventory," it's completely unstressed (and deleted) in standard British English but gets secondary stress in American English.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Ephraim » 18 Sep 2015 17:18

Sumelic wrote:I believe for most of the Normanized loans, the antepenult stress is due to a shift from older final stress (that I think can be seen in Chaucer etc.) by means of alternating strong-weak syllables.

So "charitee," etc., stressed on the last syllable, gets a secondary stress on the third-to-last syllable. Then that secondary stress becomes the primary stress. This kind of stress-shift back two syllables from the French position also explains "analogue," "analogy," "analogical" (and also "monologue" and the rest of the "-ologies" and "onomies.")

I think the same shift also occurred in "nominate," "nominative," "vocabulary," even though these aren't directly from French. (Compare "relate" and the like, where there was no antepenult syllable to receive secondary stress so the stress remained on the ult.)
Actually, that does explain many words. I would have thought that dictionary and vocabulary were exceptions to the third-to-last primary stress as they actually get fourth-from-last. But this makes perfect sense if these words never had ultimate stress in the first place, as the French ending is -aire and Latin -ā́rium.

Of the classical case names, this explains all trisyllabic names and accusative, but not dative and nominative (it does explain nominate.)

But I guess there was a also some analogical stress shifts, influence from other languages, different loan routes, different chronology etc. so I guess regularity isn't to be expected.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 18 Sep 2015 18:08

Adarain wrote:Y'all are silly, "croissant" is pronounced ['kɪp͡falɪ]. Also, how about we just stress the initial syllable everywhere, surely that'd solve all of our problems. Right? (are there any dialects that regularize english stress patterns?)
I Googled it and it seems that all the dialects of English have wacko stress. I wouldn't mind if we did just shift to stressing the first syllable always though, since I can't think of any times where stress is contrastive and words are actually the same part of speech. Sometimes, even words that are different parts of speech can be stressed the same, like direct (adj.) and direct (v.) and people manage to never get them confused, so I don't see why it would matter if say, insight and incite were pronounced the same, or record (v.) and record (n.), or really anything else.

Well, French spelling is so weird that <croissant> might as well be ['kɪp͡falɪ]. Somehow <dois> is /dwa/ and not /dɔɪ̯s/. (Not that English spelling is better. At least I heard in French you can tell how to pronounce things from reading them even if you don't know how to spell them from hearing them.)
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Dormouse559
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Dormouse559 » 18 Sep 2015 21:35

HoskhMatriarch wrote:Well, French spelling is so weird that <croissant> might as well be ['kɪp͡falɪ]. Somehow <dois> is /dwa/ and not /dɔɪ̯s/. (Not that English spelling is better. At least I heard in French you can tell how to pronounce things from reading them even if you don't know how to spell them from hearing them.)
French pronunciation is quite predictable from spelling. And spelling can be predicted from pronunciation in context. /fwa/ on its own can be spelled multiple ways, at least five (foi, fois, foie, foies, Foix). But if you hear /la fwa/, that narrows it down to two (foi, fois). If you hear /la fwa u/, it can only be spelled one way (fois).

And there are other contextual clues we take into account without noticing. "Foix" is a commune in France, so you likely won't consider that spelling if the person who said /fwa/ isn't talking about that specific place. "Foie" means "liver", so unless the person is talking about cooking or anatomy, that spelling is ruled out. "Fois", on the other hand, means "time, instance". People often talk about the time they did something, so that is often a good bet when you hear /fwa/.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by qwed117 » 19 Sep 2015 19:50

Hey, there's one in the title of this thread
*pronounciation (that's what I misremember)
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by cntrational » 19 Sep 2015 19:53

Yeah, it's pronunciation, and pronounce.

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by qwed117 » 19 Sep 2015 19:55

cntrational wrote:Yeah, it's pronunciation, and pronounce.
I have only one thing to say about that: fuck stress-based english schwa ablaut
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by shimobaatar » 19 Sep 2015 21:38

Dormouse559 wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:Huh. I say ["kwasQ~] with a short [a], and slight rhoticisation of the /w/. Is that not people normally say it? [I do sometimes hear it with final /t/]
Well, I can't say it's common in my experience, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear it.
[+1] Maybe different dialects/countries tend to pronounce it differently?
Prinsessa wrote:Carl from Jimmy Neutron says KWASAAAA at least.
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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 20 Sep 2015 08:43

qwed117 wrote:
cntrational wrote:Yeah, it's pronunciation, and pronounce.
I have only one thing to say about that: fuck stress-based english schwa ablaut
NO! Schwas are pointy... it would hurt. I'd rather fuck an /o/ any day.
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by druneragarsh » 20 Sep 2015 11:50

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
cntrational wrote:Yeah, it's pronunciation, and pronounce.
I have only one thing to say about that: fuck stress-based english schwa ablaut
NO! Schwas are pointy... it would hurt. I'd rather fuck an /o/ any day.
Eh, /ɪ/ is the most useful one imo. Not everyone has a stick, but everyone has at least one hole.
But yeah, fuck variable stress and ablaut.
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GrandPiano
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by GrandPiano » 21 Sep 2015 20:39

For those who are wondering, the reason it's pronunciation and not pronounciation is that at one point in Middle English, all long vowels were shortened when followed by two or more unstressed syllables - this is called trisyllabic laxing (note that most unstressed vowels were reduced to schwas early on in Middle English, and later, after trisyllabic laxing, all word-final schwas were deleted). Then, sometime between Late Middle English and Early Modern English, the Great Vowel Shift happens, and vowels that were previously only different in length came to have very different qualities. This lead to:

[sənˈsɛːr(ə)] > [sənˈsiːr] <sincere>
[sənˈserətiː] > [sənˈsɛrəti] <sincerity> (I'm assuming that word-final <y> was pronounced /iː/ in Middle English because of its modern pronunciation)

[dəˈviːn(ə)] > [dəˈvaɪ̯n] <divine>
[dəˈvinətiː] > [dəˈvɪnəti] <divinity>

[suːθ] > [saʊ̯θ] <south>
[ˈsuðərn(ə)] > [ˈsʌðɚn] <southern>

Although, given that the u in pronunciation is in an unstressed syllable, maybe the difference in pronunciation here is just due to unstressed vowels being reduced to schwas?
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Sumelic » 23 Sep 2015 11:46

GrandPiano wrote:For those who are wondering, the reason it's pronunciation and not pronounciation is that at one point in Middle English, all long vowels were shortened when followed by two or more unstressed syllables - this is called trisyllabic laxing (note that most unstressed vowels were reduced to schwas early on in Middle English, and later, after trisyllabic laxing, all word-final schwas were deleted).
[...]
Although, given that the u in pronunciation is in an unstressed syllable, maybe the difference in pronunciation here is just due to unstressed vowels being reduced to schwas?
Actually, I think it's the vowel in "pronounce" that needs more explaining. "Pronunciation" has the English pronunciation one would expect for a word derived from Latin "pronunciatio." The "u" is in a closed syllable, so it is lax /ʌ/ rather than tense /juː/, according to the standard English way of pronouncing Latinisms. Both in French and English, fancy, formal nominalizations like this are prone to being preserved or remodelled (in both spelling and pronunciation) on the basis of the Latin form, which educated people would have been familiar with, rather than following all the sound-changes found in more common words (the corresponding French word "prononciation" does have "o" rather than "u," but on the other hand the noun ending "-ation" is characteristic of "cultisms" that were re-borrowed from Latin rather than evolving according to all the regular sound changes (which give the suffix "-aison" instead.)) I don't think TSL can explain it because the "u" is not the antepenult, and the main stress is on a different vowel anyway.

For "pronounce," the Old French form appears to have been "prononcier" and the modern form is "prononcer." Apparently though, in the variety of French that contributed to English, this developed to /u/ or something similar that was taken into Middle English as /uː/ and then diphthongized to /au̯/. Parallel words listed on Wiktionary are the historical noun "pounce" corresponding to French "ponce," and "ounce" corresponding to Middle French "once."

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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by Khemehekis » 24 Sep 2015 08:10

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
cntrational wrote:Yeah, it's pronunciation, and pronounce.
I have only one thing to say about that: fuck stress-based english schwa ablaut
NO! Schwas are pointy... it would hurt. I'd rather fuck an /o/ any day.
I'm bisexual, so I'd like an /o/ or an /i/.

(Or an /y/.)
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Re: Misremembered spelling/pronunciation

Post by qwed117 » 24 Sep 2015 21:59

Khemehekis wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
cntrational wrote:Yeah, it's pronunciation, and pronounce.
I have only one thing to say about that: fuck stress-based english schwa ablaut
NO! Schwas are pointy... it would hurt. I'd rather fuck an /o/ any day.
I'm bisexual, so I'd like an /o/ or an /i/.

(Or an /y/.)
Am I seeing double?!?
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