English without GVS?

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
Davush
greek
greek
Posts: 505
Joined: 10 Jan 2015 14:10

Re: English without GVS?

Post by Davush » 28 Dec 2015 13:56

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Davush wrote:
Aleks wrote:Indeed, I am quite partial to /x/ although as an English speaker don't say it often like /h/. Rolled R would definitely spice it up.
My dialect (Scouse) has both of these. [:D] The rhotic is consistently /ɾ/ and /k/ is [x] or [χ] when word-final and sometimes between vowels. Quite a lot of Northern British dialects still have /ɾ/.
Does Scottish count as Northern British? Most Scottish people say they're not British (even though they're on the island of Great Britain) so I'm honestly not sure. It's the main dialect I think of as having both of those. As far as Northern British dialects go, I know Northumbrian is the dialect that had/has the /ʀ/ (which is the only thing better than /r/, although only marginally, because /r/ is still really nice, I just have a weird thing for /ʀ/). Why couldn't standard forms of English have come from Northern Britain is one thing I've thought for while, although mostly because Northern British dialects are more Norse-influenced and Southern British dialects are more French-influenced (although Norse probably still has more influence than French for Southern British dialects, considering there's the pronoun "they" and a whole lot of syntax that looks like Danish in all English and nothing like that with French in any major dialect).
I know /ɾ/ is common in many Scottish dialects, but I'm not too sure about the differences within Scotland. I have only ever heard the 'Northumbrian burr' once from an old man, I think it's all but died out now.

cntrational
roman
roman
Posts: 953
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 03:59

Re: English without GVS?

Post by cntrational » 30 Dec 2015 09:46

Northern Englandish and Scottish English/Scots are similar because both are branches of Northern Early Middle English. Southern England is from, well, Southern Early Middle English.

It has nothing to do with Norse or French influence.

User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1477
Joined: 15 May 2010 23:25

Re: English without GVS?

Post by Xonen » 30 Dec 2015 12:30

cntrational wrote:Northern Englandish and Scottish English/Scots are similar because both are branches of Northern Early Middle English. Southern England is from, well, Southern Early Middle English.

It has nothing to do with Norse or French influence.
Well, except for the fact that Northern Late OE / Early ME was strongly influenced by Norse, which was one of the things that set it apart from more southern dialects. The spread of French influence was probably tied more to social class than geography, though.

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1647
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 18:37

Re: English without GVS?

Post by Salmoneus » 30 Dec 2015 13:21

Xonen wrote:
cntrational wrote:Northern Englandish and Scottish English/Scots are similar because both are branches of Northern Early Middle English. Southern England is from, well, Southern Early Middle English.

It has nothing to do with Norse or French influence.
Well, except for the fact that Northern Late OE / Early ME was strongly influenced by Norse, which was one of the things that set it apart from more southern dialects. The spread of French influence was probably tied more to social class than geography, though.
As you can see easily from looking at place names. Ashby-de-la-Zouch, for instance, and neighbouring Normanton le Heath, are right in the middle of the country.

[fun fact, though unrelated: the town is named after Alan la Zouche, but the fun fact is that his son, Eudo la Zouche, married a woman named Millicent de Cantilupe, which may now be my favourite name ever...]

cntrational
roman
roman
Posts: 953
Joined: 05 Nov 2012 03:59

Re: English without GVS?

Post by cntrational » 30 Dec 2015 13:55

Xonen wrote:
cntrational wrote:Northern Englandish and Scottish English/Scots are similar because both are branches of Northern Early Middle English. Southern England is from, well, Southern Early Middle English.

It has nothing to do with Norse or French influence.
Well, except for the fact that Northern Late OE / Early ME was strongly influenced by Norse, which was one of the things that set it apart from more southern dialects. The spread of French influence was probably tied more to social class than geography, though.
True. I mean that it's not because of Norse that Scottish and Northern English dialects are the same, it's because they come from the same Norse-influenced ancestor. Norse is part of it, but not the sole reason.

User avatar
HinGambleGoth
greek
greek
Posts: 459
Joined: 01 Jul 2014 04:29
Location: gøtalandum

Re: English without GVS?

Post by HinGambleGoth » 10 Jan 2016 17:27

Some older RP speakers did often have /r/ as a trill in articulate speech, like for instance Peter cushing, but those speakers are mostly dead by now.
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
[B)] Image Image :deu:

User avatar
Egerius
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2413
Joined: 12 Sep 2013 20:29
Location: Not Rodentèrra
Contact:

Re: English without GVS?

Post by Egerius » 10 Jan 2016 17:42

HinGambleGoth wrote:Some older RP speakers did often have /r/ as a trill in articulate speech, like for instance Peter cushing, but those speakers are mostly dead by now.
I soaked that conservative RP up (from classical Doctor Who episodes) and now I sometimes have a flap, especially in unstressed syllables — in formal speech, at least.
Languages of Rodentèrra: Buonavallese, Saselvan Argemontese; Wīlandisċ Taulkeisch; More on the road.
Conlang embryo of TELES: Proto-Avesto-Umbric ~> Proto-Umbric
New blog: http://argentiusbonavalensis.tumblr.com

User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1477
Joined: 15 May 2010 23:25

Re: English without GVS?

Post by Xonen » 10 Jan 2016 18:13

Egerius wrote:
HinGambleGoth wrote:Some older RP speakers did often have /r/ as a trill in articulate speech, like for instance Peter cushing, but those speakers are mostly dead by now.
I soaked that conservative RP up (from classical Doctor Who episodes) and now I sometimes have a flap, especially in unstressed syllables — in formal speech, at least.
Yeah, intervocalic /r/ being pronounced as a tap/flap was, as mentioned above, apparently pretty much standard in older RP. The (word-initial) trill is also attested, certainly, but it seems to have been less common. A bit of googling yielded this bit of educated guessing, where it's speculated that it may have been a learned feature used in theatrical or otherwise "official" registers.

User avatar
abi
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 87
Joined: 19 Aug 2010 20:09

Re: English without GVS?

Post by abi » 23 Jan 2016 23:56

Aleks wrote:Rolled R would definitely spice it up.
Considering rolled is the standard/more common "r" sound, I'd say english has the spicier phoneme. Combine that with our lovely /T, D/ and vowel system and I'd say we have a pretty flavorful language here.

User avatar
qwed117
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4406
Joined: 20 Nov 2014 02:27

Re: English without GVS?

Post by qwed117 » 25 Jan 2016 23:07

abi wrote:
Aleks wrote:Rolled R would definitely spice it up.
Considering rolled is the standard/more common "r" sound, I'd say english has the spicier phoneme. Combine that with our lovely /T, D/ and vowel system and I'd say we have a pretty flavorful language here.
[+1]
I hate how people are all like "th is an awful sound". It has so much potential if you didn't act reactionarily on first glance! My dialect switches between /T D tT dD/.
Spoiler:
My minicity is Zyphrazia and Novland
What is made of man will crumble away.

User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2690
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: English without GVS?

Post by GrandPiano » 27 Jan 2016 00:34

qwed117 wrote:My dialect switches between /T D tT dD/.
I seem to sometimes realize /θ/ and /ð/ as interdental /t/ and /d/ (particularly utterance-initially).
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

HoskhMatriarch
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1779
Joined: 16 May 2015 17:48

Re: English without GVS?

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 27 Jan 2016 05:35

qwed117 wrote:
abi wrote:
Aleks wrote:Rolled R would definitely spice it up.
Considering rolled is the standard/more common "r" sound, I'd say english has the spicier phoneme. Combine that with our lovely /T, D/ and vowel system and I'd say we have a pretty flavorful language here.
[+1]
I hate how people are all like "th is an awful sound". It has so much potential if you didn't act reactionarily on first glance! My dialect switches between /T D tT dD/.
Yes, I like all the fricatives. Th-sounds are like old Germanic languages, and I like old Germanic languages. Even German used to have th-sounds (and /w/).
abi wrote:
Aleks wrote:Rolled R would definitely spice it up.
Considering rolled is the standard/more common "r" sound, I'd say english has the spicier phoneme. Combine that with our lovely /T, D/ and vowel system and I'd say we have a pretty flavorful language here.
I think we should adopt a uvular trill. It's an uncommon phoneme and it sounds nicer than [ɻːːːːːːːːːːːːːː] to me, so it's a win-win.
No darkness can harm you if you are guided by your own inner light

Post Reply