Gender ideology in languages

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
imperialismus
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 33
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:30

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by imperialismus » 02 Oct 2016 06:32

Ahzoh wrote:
imperialismus wrote:I agree, but as long as it is, it should be equal for all genders.

I do find it particularly silly that we (by which I mean my own country, can't speak for others) allow women in the military, but allow them to fulfill more relaxed restrictions as to physical fitness. I would think if the enemy is shooting to kill, they wouldn't let a woman escape just to be fair to her sex. And if on the other hand it really isn't necessary to be more fit than the women's requirements, why are men held to a higher standard?! Makes no sense to me, unless you apply macho sexist theory.
Now isn't that a problem:
1) People want women to be a strong as men (and generally, this is not biologically possible for most women, unless they go through more rigorous activity than is needed of men)
2) People want more women to be in the military, drafted even (generalization)
3) Women want to serve their country just like men do (another generalization)

I was watching a video regarding female draft and these were the kind of arguments made:

"Women should not run for president until women start signing for the draft."

"How about making a platoon of all men and platoon of all women? If the women became ass draggers the only people they will put in harms way is their own demographic. Prevents white knighting and maximizes woman casualty (lets close the combat death gap). Also makes a good case study about women being equal with men. Let's see how it will stand-up to harsh reality."
Spoiler:
^Exactly. Feminist keep crowing that women can do anything a man can do. Time to see if it's really true."

"Then have women start making compnies compose of women. let see how well they do. they've been bitching about fewer CEO then have them start their own."

"Then they better rise up instead of pulling men down. remember we have affirmative actions and quotas. remove those shit and have them face reality instead of hiding behind state power."
"I say let women go off to war, let them be mutilated, shot, burned, have limbs blown off, and suffer the mental effects of War. they want an 'equal' society, let them bleed for those values as men have done in two world wars..... about time they suffered for the very freedoms that men have died for to give them..."

"The army is open to females and yet only around 15% ever go. Yea, women want equality, but only when they can cherry pick. They want equality, draft them."

You'd think Return of Kings dominated that video's comments section.
I can't really tell from this post if you agree with me, wish to compare me to ultra-sleezy alpha guys, or neither.

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5769
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Toma-ʾEzra lit Vṛḵaža

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Ahzoh » 02 Oct 2016 06:34

imperialismus wrote:I can't really tell from this post if you agree with me, wish to compare me to ultra-sleezy alpha guys, or neither.
Everything above the line is relevant to your post while everything below the line is an aside.
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Wərxažu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

Sumelic
greek
greek
Posts: 619
Joined: 18 Jun 2013 23:01

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Sumelic » 02 Oct 2016 07:44

Khemehekis wrote: "Singer" has no gender distinction, does it? I remember in the two-page spread for occupations in the original First Thousand Words books, one of the few women shown in the pictures was to illustrate the word "singer".
"Singer" does not have a gender distinction, no.
Khemehekis wrote: A god, lower-case g, usually means male, but God, capital G, can be either male, female or androgynous, depending on what you believe the monotheistic deity is.
Rather than "androgynous," I'd say "genderless." But yeah, any of these are possible. I wouldn't say the usage differs much between the proper and common noun though--both have a strong, but not absolute implication of maleness.
Khemehekis wrote: A wizard, in fantasy, is always male, right? (I read in an article on the Harry Potter books that the boys were called wizards and the girls witches). In its sense of "genius", however, the word is gender-neutral.
Not necessarily. Having "witches" and "wizards" be gendered terms for the same kind of magic user is a kind of unusual feature of Rowling's works. In older works or modern folklore/pop-culture, it's true these words are fairly gendered, but they usually refer to people who are different in more ways than just gender. Wizards are stereotypically wise old men, possibly helpful like Merlin, while witches are stereotypically old, ugly, and evil women, often considered to be in league with the devil. They also have different stereotypical clothing (both tend to have pointy hats, but wizards' tend to be blue with stars, while witches' tend to be black with wide round brims; riding broomsticks is also usually only associated with witches). In contemporary fantasy, wizards and witches are often still distinguished in more ways then gender, although obviously not everyone uses the "female and evil" stereotype of witches. Discworld is an example where wizards are generally male, but not inherently so (the third book is about the first female wizard), and witches are basically wise-women (I don't think we ever see a male witch, but if there were one, he would be clearly distinct from the wizards). Another thing that often shows up is choosing the term that has the best connotations for whatever the concept is, and then use it gender-neutrally: wizards in Dungeons and Dragons can be male or female, while Patricia C. Wrede wrote a book with a male "fire witch".

So in works that are influenced by D&D, female wizards would be unremarkable. Another word that is commonly used if people want a gender-neutral term is "mage." I feel like "warlock" and "witch" are paired more often than "wizard" and "witch." The male/female pair "sorcerer/sorceress" are also fairly common.

Khemehekis
mayan
mayan
Posts: 2402
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Khemehekis » 02 Oct 2016 08:06

Sumelic wrote:
Khemehekis wrote: A god, lower-case g, usually means male, but God, capital G, can be either male, female or androgynous, depending on what you believe the monotheistic deity is.
Rather than "androgynous," I'd say "genderless." But yeah, any of these are possible. I wouldn't say the usage differs much between the proper and common noun though--both have a strong, but not absolute implication of maleness.
Often people speak of "gods and goddesses", where a god is specifically a male deity, so I'd say the common noun is strongly gendered. With the proper noun, "God", however, the issue is that Christians, Jews and Muslims normally view their monotheistic deity as male. I don't think I've ever heard a God-is-female believer refer to God as "Goddess", however. (Witness the bumper sticker: God is coming, and boy is she pissed!) With capital-G God, I'd say it's the cultural tradition of the Single Deity being male, and not something linguistic about the name "God", that gives the word its connotations of maleness.

Sumelic wrote:Not necessarily. Having "witches" and "wizards" be gendered terms for the same kind of magic user is a kind of unusual feature of Rowling's works. In older works or modern folklore/pop-culture, it's true these words are fairly gendered, but they usually refer to people who are different in more ways than just gender. Wizards are stereotypically wise old men, possibly helpful like Merlin, while witches are stereotypically old, ugly, and evil women, often considered to be in league with the devil. They also have different stereotypical clothing (both tend to have pointy hats, but wizards' tend to be blue with stars, while witches' tend to be black with wide round brims; riding broomsticks is also usually only associated with witches). In contemporary fantasy, wizards and witches are often still distinguished in more ways then gender, although obviously not everyone uses the "female and evil" stereotype of witches. Discworld is an example where wizards are generally male, but not inherently so (the third book is about the first female wizard), and witches are basically wise-women (I don't think we ever see a male witch, but if there were one, he would be clearly distinct from the wizards). Another thing that often shows up is choosing the term that has the best connotations for whatever the concept is, and then use it gender-neutrally: wizards in Dungeons and Dragons can be male or female, while Patricia C. Wrede wrote a book with a male "fire witch".

So in works that are influenced by D&D, female wizards would be unremarkable. Another word that is commonly used if people want a gender-neutral term is "mage." I feel like "warlock" and "witch" are paired more often than "wizard" and "witch." The male/female pair "sorcerer/sorceress" are also fairly common.
Wow! That was a fascinating overview! Never knew that there were female wizards in Dungeons & Dragons. True, "warlock" can be used, but I saw a picture of a warlock before, and he was a hideous being with faces where his knees should be.

Edit: Check out the cover of this book:

http://www.teenreads.com/reviews/teen-w ... generation

Even though it is titled Teen Witch, one of the five teens pictured on the cover is a boy. Interesting, no?
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 60,137 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

Ebon
sinic
sinic
Posts: 431
Joined: 02 Jul 2016 20:55

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Ebon » 02 Oct 2016 09:55

Khemehekis wrote: Edit: Check out the cover of this book:

http://www.teenreads.com/reviews/teen-w ... generation

Even though it is titled Teen Witch, one of the five teens pictured on the cover is a boy. Interesting, no?
Modern day witches (that is, people who believe in witchcraft) frequently use witch as genderneutral. Poke around and you'll find male witches.

User avatar
Xing
MVP
MVP
Posts: 5292
Joined: 22 Aug 2010 18:46

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Xing » 02 Oct 2016 10:56

Squall wrote:
'hen' is used for children, because they have not chosen their gender.
This is not generally true. Though could always find some progressive ideologist in some hipster neighbourhood who would insist on that, it's not something that people generally do.

User avatar
gach
MVP
MVP
Posts: 702
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 01:26
Location: displaced from Helsinki

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by gach » 02 Oct 2016 17:21

I might not be the most prolific user of Swedish, but I've personally never encountered this pronoun hen "out there in the wild".
ImageKištaLkal sikSeic

User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1508
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Xonen » 02 Oct 2016 18:13

GrandPiano wrote:
Squall wrote:
GrandPiano wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that "gay" and "lesbian" are sexualities, not genders.
I mean they do not distinguish gender and consequently sexuality is not subject of distinction.
The fact is, though, that sexuality is a subject of distinction. Most people (heterosexuals) only feel attraction toward people of the opposite gender. Some people (homosexuals) only feel attraction toward people of the same gender, and others (bisexuals) feel attraction toward both (there are other sexualities too, of course). This attraction is a real thing that can't be controlled and not just something made up by society, so I guess the concept of sexuality actually demonstrates that gender is a thing on some level other than just the societal level.
Perhaps to some degree, but I don't think it's quite that simple. First of all, I don't believe I've ever met anyone who would actually have been categorically attracted to "men" or "women"; most people have types. So labels like hetero-, homo- or bisexuality are, at best, useful generalizations; what counts as someone's type might largely only include members of one biological sex, yes - but it's difficult to tell how much of this is actually hardwired in our biology and how much is actually just a product of deeply internalized cultural mores. Certainly, bisexuality (or what we would use that term for) has been a lot more common in some societies, such as ancient Greece and Rome. These days, it's also a lot more common among women, which is probably largely because it's more accepted for them. A man who might be at least bi-curious in some other circumstances is much more likely to just identify as heterosexual.

(Curiously enough, I also personally have several female friends who identify as straight despite being quite openly attracted to other women; one once explained to me that straight men just don't want to feel attracted to other men because that's considered "gay" in our society, or something to that effect. I'm not quite sure what to make of that; we just agreed that apparently the word "heterosexuality" means different things to different people. [:P])

Sumelic wrote:
Khemehekis wrote: A wizard, in fantasy, is always male, right? (I read in an article on the Harry Potter books that the boys were called wizards and the girls witches). In its sense of "genius", however, the word is gender-neutral.
Not necessarily. Having "witches" and "wizards" be gendered terms for the same kind of magic user is a kind of unusual feature of Rowling's works. In older works or modern folklore/pop-culture, it's true these words are fairly gendered, but they usually refer to people who are different in more ways than just gender. Wizards are stereotypically wise old men, possibly helpful like Merlin, while witches are stereotypically old, ugly, and evil women, often considered to be in league with the devil. They also have different stereotypical clothing (both tend to have pointy hats, but wizards' tend to be blue with stars, while witches' tend to be black with wide round brims; riding broomsticks is also usually only associated with witches). In contemporary fantasy, wizards and witches are often still distinguished in more ways then gender, although obviously not everyone uses the "female and evil" stereotype of witches.
It's perhaps worth noting that even Tolkien, the grand old man of modern fantasy, has a character called the Witch-king.

User avatar
CrazyEttin
greek
greek
Posts: 578
Joined: 28 Feb 2011 19:43

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by CrazyEttin » 02 Oct 2016 19:38

Since this is a language-related forum and we all thus know that words matter, i’d like to remind people that "Gender Theory" is a right-wing trans- and homophobic buzzword (and Squall certainly seems to use it in this sence). I’m both transgender and pansexual so i get this shit thrown at me far too much already, so i’d love to be safe from it at least in communities formed around my favourite hobby.

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5769
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Toma-ʾEzra lit Vṛḵaža

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Ahzoh » 02 Oct 2016 20:02

CrazyEttin wrote:Since this is a language-related forum and we all thus know that words matter, i’d like to remind people that "Gender Theory" is a right-wing trans- and homophobic buzzword (and Squall certainly seems to use it in this sence). I’m both transgender and pansexual so i get this shit thrown at me far too much already, so i’d love to be safe from it at least in communities formed around my favourite hobby.
Looking back, I could certainly see that.
As an aside, you're transgender, regarding that I remember debating with someone who argued the position, IIRC, "that transgender is fake because gender is fake" and compared it to "transracialism". What are your thoughts on that?
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Wərxažu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

User avatar
Ear of the Sphinx
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1969
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 01:41
Location: Nose of the Sun

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » 02 Oct 2016 20:10

In Swedish, the natural third-person pronouns are 'han' (he) and 'hon' (she). They invented the pronoun 'hen' to disregard the gender. 'hen' is used when the gender is unknown and it is often used for homosexuals. It is also used for children, because they have not chosen their gender.
So, if the Polish language uses the neuter gender for children, does that mean that children are agender in (specifically) Poland? Does that mean that this “gender ideology” has somehow tainted the Polish language?

Spoiler: No.
English is not consistent in rules:
"A boss must be nice to [his/her/their] subordinates."
Some dialects use 'he' and other dialects use 'they'. The word 'someone' use 'they'.
In the radical side, feminists support the use of 'she'.
In Polish, the following sentences are grammatically correct:
„Spotkałem pewną osobę. Była ona bardzo miła.” (I met a person. She was very polite.)
„O każdej istocie ludzkiej możemy powiedzieć, że jest ona wolna.” (We can say it about every human being that she is free.)
„Nawet jeśli jednostka jest tego nieświadoma, jest ona częścią społeczeństwa.” (Even if an entity is unaware of that, she is a part of the society.)

And the following are grammatically incorrect:
„Spotkałem pewną osobę. Był on bardzo miły.” (I met a person. He was very polite.)
„O każdej istocie ludzkiej możemy powiedzieć, że jest on wolny.” (We can say it about every human being that he is free.)
„Nawet jeśli jednostka jest tego nieświadoma, jest on częścią społeczeństwa.” (Even if an entity is unaware of that, he is a part of the society.)

Therefore, the Polish language has been taken over by radical feminists!

Spoiler: Not.
If gender is completely fake, where do transgenders relate in that?
I don't know.

If your username is completely fake, why do you use that instead of a random string of characters?
"King", on the other hand, can only refer to a male.
That's both sexist and historically inaccurate.
(Curiously enough, I also personally have several female friends who identify as straight despite being quite openly attracted to other women; one once explained to me that straight men just don't want to feel attracted to other men because that's considered "gay" in our society, or something to that effect. I'm not quite sure what to make of that; we just agreed that apparently the word "heterosexuality" means different things to different people. [:P])
I'd say that closet bisexuality is a closet made of very thick wood. [:P]
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5769
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Toma-ʾEzra lit Vṛḵaža

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Ahzoh » 02 Oct 2016 20:24

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:
If gender is completely fake, where do transgenders relate in that?
I don't know.
If your username is completely fake, why do you use that instead of a random string of characters?
Non sequitur.
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Wərxažu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

imperialismus
hieroglyphic
hieroglyphic
Posts: 33
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:30

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by imperialismus » 02 Oct 2016 20:32

Xonen wrote:
Sumelic wrote:
Khemehekis wrote: A wizard, in fantasy, is always male, right? (I read in an article on the Harry Potter books that the boys were called wizards and the girls witches). In its sense of "genius", however, the word is gender-neutral.
Not necessarily. Having "witches" and "wizards" be gendered terms for the same kind of magic user is a kind of unusual feature of Rowling's works. In older works or modern folklore/pop-culture, it's true these words are fairly gendered, but they usually refer to people who are different in more ways than just gender. Wizards are stereotypically wise old men, possibly helpful like Merlin, while witches are stereotypically old, ugly, and evil women, often considered to be in league with the devil. They also have different stereotypical clothing (both tend to have pointy hats, but wizards' tend to be blue with stars, while witches' tend to be black with wide round brims; riding broomsticks is also usually only associated with witches). In contemporary fantasy, wizards and witches are often still distinguished in more ways then gender, although obviously not everyone uses the "female and evil" stereotype of witches.
It's perhaps worth noting that even Tolkien, the grand old man of modern fantasy, has a character called the Witch-king.
Tolkien loved archaic language, and he was no doubt aware that "witch" was in fact at one time a gender-neutral term, although one typically applied to women. Etymonline says "Witch in reference to a man survived in dialect into 20c., but the fem. form was so dominant by 1601 that men-witches or he-witch began to be used," and further that "witch" derives from "fem. of Old English wicca "sorcerer, wizard, man who practices witchcraft or magic."

User avatar
CrazyEttin
greek
greek
Posts: 578
Joined: 28 Feb 2011 19:43

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by CrazyEttin » 02 Oct 2016 21:02

Ahzoh wrote:As an aside, you're transgender, regarding that I remember debating with someone who argued the position, IIRC, "that transgender is fake because gender is fake" and compared it to "transracialism". What are your thoughts on that?
Socially constructed != fake. And so-called "transracialism"* isn’t in the same category, because while race is also a social construct, it is determined very differently from gender.

*transracial is actually a term used to refer to children adopted into faimilies of differewnt race, and thus its use to refer to people who claim to be different race than they are creates confusion.

User avatar
Ear of the Sphinx
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1969
Joined: 23 Aug 2010 01:41
Location: Nose of the Sun

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » 02 Oct 2016 21:06

Ahzoh wrote:
Ear of the Sphinx wrote:
If gender is completely fake, where do transgenders relate in that?
I don't know.
If your username is completely fake, why do you use that instead of a random string of characters?
Non sequitur.
Bingo!
Thrice the brinded cat hath mew'd.

User avatar
Ahzoh
korean
korean
Posts: 5769
Joined: 20 Oct 2013 02:57
Location: Toma-ʾEzra lit Vṛḵaža

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Ahzoh » 02 Oct 2016 21:26

CrazyEttin wrote:Socially constructed != fake.
How do they not equate?
*transracial is actually a term used to refer to children adopted into faimilies of differewnt race, and thus its use to refer to people who claim to be different race than they are creates confusion.
I believed the particular individual I was arguing with was using it to refer to Rachel Dolezal's case.
Ear of the Sphinx wrote:Bingo!
No, you're question does not logically follow from mine.
Image Ӯсцьӣ (Onschen) [ CWS ]
Image Šat Wərxažu (Vrkhazhian) [ WIKI | CWS ]

Squall
greek
greek
Posts: 578
Joined: 28 Nov 2013 14:47

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Squall » 02 Oct 2016 22:52

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:So, if the Polish language uses the neuter gender for children, does that mean that children are agender in (specifically) Poland? Does that mean that this “gender ideology” has somehow tainted the Polish language?

And the following are grammatically incorrect:
„Spotkałem pewną osobę. Był on bardzo miły.” (I met a person. He was very polite.)
„O każdej istocie ludzkiej możemy powiedzieć, że jest on wolny.” (We can say it about every human being that he is free.)
„Nawet jeśli jednostka jest tego nieświadoma, jest on częścią społeczeństwa.” (Even if an entity is unaware of that, he is a part of the society.)
That is not what I mean. In the Portuguese language, the words for 'person', 'kid' and 'entity' are feminine. So in "Even if an entity is unaware of that, she is a part of the society.", the use of 'she' is a rule of grammatical agreement rather than the natural gender. All nouns are randomly gendered. I believe that it is what happens in Polish.

This is the issue:
"Bob is happy because he has received a gift."
It is not normal to use 'she' or the neuter in this sentence. Is it possible in Polish?
The gender ideology wants to use the neuter in this sentence if Bob is a child.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by Axiem » 03 Oct 2016 00:01

Squall wrote: This is the issue:
"Bob is happy because he has received a gift."
It is not normal to use 'she' or the neuter in this sentence. Is it possible in Polish?
The gender ideology wants to use the neuter in this sentence if Bob is a child.
Despite having spent a great deal of time who would probably fall under your umbrella of being people in favor of "gender ideology" (a term that I have never heard prior to this thread, I will point out), I have never once heard any of them suggest at all that the choice of pronoun should depend in the slightest on Bob's age.

What I have heard, however, is that 1) we should use whatever pronouns Bob requests us to use, and 2) when talking about people generically, it is better to use gender-neutral pronouns (such as the singular they) instead of defaulting to the male pronoun. (e.g. "The child is happy because they received a gift", instead of using "he" without knowing the gender of the child)

In short, I think that you are making a straw man "argument".
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2638
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by GrandPiano » 03 Oct 2016 01:17

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:
"King", on the other hand, can only refer to a male.
That's both sexist and historically inaccurate.
How is it sexist? Would it be sexist to say "all queens are female" if there turned out to have historically been a male ruler who decided to call himself king?

Anyway, while there may have been a few obscure cases of female kings in the past, the word king is still generally reserved for males in common usage today, as evidenced by this Wikipedia page which lists "king" as a male title and this trope which relies on it being abnormal for a king to be female. I suppose it is innaccurate to say that "king" can only refer to a male, though.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

User avatar
CrazyEttin
greek
greek
Posts: 578
Joined: 28 Feb 2011 19:43

Re: Gender ideology in languages

Post by CrazyEttin » 03 Oct 2016 11:23

Ahzoh wrote:
CrazyEttin wrote:Socially constructed != fake.
How do they not equate?
A language creator who thinks social constructs are fake. This might be the most ironic thing i’ve ever seen.

Post Reply