Surprising cognates

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2774
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Surprising cognates

Post by Shemtov » 26 Nov 2017 23:36

This is a thread for cognates with different meanings, but are not so phonologically close as to be considered "False Friends".
:fra: <Cher> "dear" vs. :esp: :ita: :por: <Caro> "Expensive" vs. :kur: /ka:ja/ "game" vs. :eng: <Whore> :deu: <Hure> "Whore" :swe: <Hora> "Whore" :dan: :nor: <Hore> "Whore :rus: :mkd: :bul: :blr: :ukr: :srb: <ку́рва> "Whore" :cze: :lit: :hun: <Kurva> "Whore" :pol: <Kurwa> "Whore" :alb: <Kurvë> "Whore" :rou: <curvă> "Whore" Yiddish /kurvə/ "Whore"
All from PIE *keh₂ "To desire"
Last edited by Shemtov on 27 Nov 2017 04:43, edited 1 time in total.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10938
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by shimobaatar » 27 Nov 2017 02:09

:fra:

User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2673
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 27 Nov 2017 05:11

shimobaatar wrote:
27 Nov 2017 02:09
:fra:
Are you saying that the French language as a whole is a surprising cognate, or was this simply a typo?
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3140
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by sangi39 » 27 Nov 2017 05:18

GrandPiano wrote:
27 Nov 2017 05:11
shimobaatar wrote:
27 Nov 2017 02:09
:fra:
Are you saying that the French language as a whole is a surprising cognate, or was this simply a typo?
Shemtov originally used the Quebec flag for the French language, saying they couldn't find just the flag of France. I think Shimobaatar was saying we do have one. OP's been edited now so there's no context [:P]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2673
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 27 Nov 2017 05:38

Ah, that makes sense, then.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

shimobaatar
darkness
darkness
Posts: 10938
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 22:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by shimobaatar » 27 Nov 2017 06:17

sangi39 wrote:
27 Nov 2017 05:18
GrandPiano wrote:
27 Nov 2017 05:11
shimobaatar wrote:
27 Nov 2017 02:09
:fra:
Are you saying that the French language as a whole is a surprising cognate, or was this simply a typo?
Shemtov originally used the Quebec flag for the French language, saying they couldn't find just the flag of France. I think Shimobaatar was saying we do have one. OP's been edited now so there's no context [:P]
Bingo. I should have quoted what the flag was in response to, but for some reason it didn't occur to me that the context might be edited away later.

User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2774
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Shemtov » 27 Nov 2017 18:23

Yeah, I should have made a note of the edit, or replied to Shimobaatar's post by saying "Thanks, you gave me the flag. Fixed now."
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2399
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 06:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by clawgrip » 28 Nov 2017 00:44

:eng: temper
:jpn: てんぷら tempura

:lat: temperare → OE temperen :eng: temper
      → :por: temperar: tempero/tempera:jpn: tempura


:eng: head
:jpn: 瓦 kawara "roof tile"

PIE *kapōlo → PIE *kauput- → PG *haubudą → OE hēafod:eng: head
     → Indo-Aryan kapā́las → Sanskrit कपाल kapāla‎:jpn: 瓦 kawara

clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2399
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 06:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by clawgrip » 28 Nov 2017 03:47

:ara: جبة jubbah "Arab traditional outer garment"
:jpn: 襦袢 juban "Japanese traditional inner garment"

From Arabic via :por: gibão/jubão "Old Portuguese garment" ??

User avatar
GrandPiano
runic
runic
Posts: 2673
Joined: 11 Jan 2015 23:22
Location: Ohio, USA

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by GrandPiano » 28 Nov 2017 05:18

This might not be exactly what you were looking for, but I was pretty surprised to find out that Chinese languages had any cognates with European languages other than perhaps the word "China" dating back to any earlier than the past century or two. As it turns out, there are (possibly) at least two:

(Using the Mandarin pronunciations, though these characters primarily appear in compound words in Mandarin rather than as words on their own)

:chn: 丝 sī (traditional 絲) "silk"
:eng: silk

:chn: Old/Middle(?) Chinese 絲 *sɨ (reconstructed Middle Chinese pronunciation) → :chn: Mandarin 丝/絲 sī (and its equivalents in other Sinitic languages)
                                   → :grc: Σήρ (Sḗr) "the Seres" (i.e. northern Chinese) → :grc: σηρικός (sērikós) "silken" → :lat: sericus "silken" → (unclear intermediate steps) → :eng: OE sioloc, seoloc, seolc:eng: English silk


:chn: 蜜 mì "honey"
:eng: mead

PIE *médʰu "honey; mead" → Proto-Tocharian *ḿət(ə):chn: Old Chinese 蜜 *mit "honey" → :chn: Mandarin 蜜 mì (and its equivalents in other Sinitic languages)
            → Proto-Germanic *meduz "mead" → :eng: OE medu, meodo:eng: English mead


(These etymologies are from Wiktionary, and are all hypothetical)
Last edited by GrandPiano on 29 Nov 2017 02:03, edited 1 time in total.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

clawgrip
MVP
MVP
Posts: 2399
Joined: 24 Jun 2012 06:33
Location: Tokyo

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by clawgrip » 28 Nov 2017 07:37

Personally I think these are pretty interesting, and they fit the thread title of "surprising cognates" (they're the same type of thing as what I posted as well).

Here is another one:
:eng: know
:jpn: 禅 zen

PIE *ǵneh₃- → PG knēaną → OE cnāwan:eng: know
      → Sanskrit ज्ञा jñā "know": ज्ञान jñāna‎ "knowledge" → Middle Chinese 禪 d͡ʑiᴇn:jpn: 禅 zen

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4494
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 28 Nov 2017 11:42

clawgrip wrote:
28 Nov 2017 00:44
:eng: head
:jpn: 瓦 kawara "roof tile"

PIE *kapōlo → PIE *kauput- → PG *haubudą → OE hēafod:eng: head
     → Indo-Aryan kapā́las → Sanskrit कपाल kapāla‎:jpn: 瓦 kawara
You can add :idn: Indonesian kepala, (also from Sanskrit) which is not suprising because is has a different meaning (It also means head.), but because it looks like an Indonesian word, it doesn't look like 'head' and because I still find borrowing of body parts a bit crazy (I know, a lot of European languages did it, though.).


Edit: Also :idn: bahasa :lat: fās
PIE: *bʰéh₂-os ~ *bʰéh₂-es-os 'speak, say' → :lat: fas 'the will of god'
     → PIA: *bʰāṣā → Sanskrit: भाषा bhāṣā:idn: bahasa 'language'

:idn: bahu 'shoulder' :deu: Bug ' bow, prow (of a ship)'
PIE: *bʰeh₂ǵʰus 'arm' →PG: *bōguz 'arm, shoulder' → OHG: buog 'animal shoulder' → :deu: Bug
     → PII: bʰaHĵʰúš 'arm' → Sanskrit बाहु bāhu 'forearm' → :idn: bahu 'shoulder'


:idn: bumi 'earth' :eng: be

PIE: *bʰewH 'to become, grow, appear' → PG: *beuną 'to be, to become' → Old English: bēon:eng: be
     → PII: *bʰávati → Sanskrit भू bhū 'to become' → Sanskrit भूमि bhūmi 'stage, limit; earth' → :idn: bumi 'earth'

:idn: desa 'village' :eng: toe

PIE: deyḱ 'to point out' → PG: taihwǭ 'toe' → :eng: toe
     →PIA: daiśás 'point, region, part' → देश deśá 'point, region, spot, place, part, portion' → :idn: desa 'village'
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2774
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Shemtov » 01 Dec 2017 17:47

This is theoretical, but Shekel (the Israeli currency) and Scallion are related. Shekel comes from the Semitic root ʃ-q-l "To weigh", meaning "Weighable currency" while Scallion comes from Latin <caepa Ascalonius> "Ashkelonian Onion" and "Ashkelon" probably means "the city of weighing", also from ʃ-q-l , given its ancient status as a center of trade
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4494
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 01 Dec 2017 20:56

:idn: pria 'young man' and :eng: friend

PIE: *priHós 'beloved' → PG: *frijaz 'free' → frijōną 'to love' → *frijōndz 'loved one' → :eng: friend
     → Sanskrit: प्रिय priya 'dear, sweetheart'→ :idn: pria 'young man'
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
Shemtov
runic
runic
Posts: 2774
Joined: 29 Apr 2013 03:06

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Shemtov » 03 Dec 2017 04:50

Baphomet and :isr: /ħɛmdaθ jɔmijm/ (Tiberian) /xɛmdat jamijm/ (Israeli) /xɛmdas jɔmijm/ (Ashkenazi) "Lit. [Most] Desired of days; A poetic title of the Sabbath". Baphomet seems to be a corruption of Arabic Muḥammad, whom the crusaders falsely believed was a Demonic "Islamic Deity" and Muḥammad comes from the Semitic root ħ-m-d "Desire" as does /ħɛmdaθ jɔmijm/.
Many children make up, or begin to make up, imaginary languages. I have been at it since I could write.
-JRR Tolkien

User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2653
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Dormouse559 » 22 Dec 2017 08:47

English fraught and freight are cognate. They both ultimately come from Middle Dutch vracht/vrecht. It seems as though fret (in the sense of a marker on a guitar) may also be connected, through French. But I get conflicting answers on its etymology.

User avatar
eldin raigmore
fire
fire
Posts: 6239
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 18:38
Location: SouthEast Michigan

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by eldin raigmore » 22 Dec 2017 10:17

@Dormouse; that "fraught" and "freight" are cognate does not surprise me. That "fret" is (or might be) cognate to both of them does!

User avatar
Adarain
greek
greek
Posts: 664
Joined: 03 Jul 2015 14:36
Location: Switzerland, usually

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Adarain » 10 Jan 2018 14:34

:che: kheia “to fall” as well as :lux: geheien “to throw” are cognate with :nld: huwen “to marry”, from *hīwijaną “to marry”. No cognate in Standard German that I am aware of, and the English cognates have also fallen out of use. This comes from a sequence of pretty wild semantic shifts that can be traced in old documents between Old High German (where it still meant “marry”) and the modern varieties and it goes something like this “to marry” → “to copulate, fuck” → “to rape” → “to plague” → “to hit” → “to throw” (→ “to fall”), all within about a millenium at best. Luxembourgish seems to accept some of the older semantic variants still, whereas in Swiss German (read: at least in my dialect) it prototypically definitely means “to fall” but can be used as “to throw” when used with some adverbial of directionality.
At kveldi skal dag lęyfa,
Konu es bręnnd es,
Mæki es ręyndr es,
Męy es gefin es,
Ís es yfir kømr,
Ǫl es drukkit es.

User avatar
Creyeditor
mongolian
mongolian
Posts: 4494
Joined: 14 Aug 2012 18:32

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by Creyeditor » 10 Jan 2018 21:35

I think the first part of 'Heirat' is distantly related via PGmc 'hiwô'.
Creyeditor
"Thoughts are free."
Produce, Analyze, Manipulate
1 :deu: 2 :eng: 3 :idn: 4 :fra: 4 :esp:
:con: Ook & Omlűt & Nautli languages & Sperenjas
[<3] Papuan languages, Morphophonology, Lexical Semantics [<3]

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3140
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Surprising cognates

Post by sangi39 » 11 Jan 2018 02:53

Creyeditor wrote:
10 Jan 2018 21:35
I think the first part of 'Heirat' is distantly related via PGmc 'hiwô'.
Wiktionary at least agrees with you. It's from *hiwô + *raidīniz
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

Post Reply