English Dialects

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Nortaneous
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Re: English Dialects

Post by Nortaneous » 19 Feb 2019 15:35

Salmoneus wrote:
18 Feb 2019 16:24
Some words that might be worth testing if you have a splitter to hand might be:
TRAP: gaff, mastic, fantastic, asp-, gasket, jasper, castle (and castor, castigate), rather
BATH: asp, mass (and cast, caster, caste), alas, fasten
missing from the dictionary: bastion, crass

Also TRAP: ant (but no other ant- words), can't (but not cant)
Not at all. "Halve" is a PALM word, which Webster would have merged with FATHER. The vocalisation of the /l/ led to a diphthong, later assimilated into a long vowel.
Is it? It has TRAP in America.

Salmoneus
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Re: English Dialects

Post by Salmoneus » 19 Feb 2019 18:39

Nortaneous wrote:
19 Feb 2019 15:35
Salmoneus wrote:
18 Feb 2019 16:24
Some words that might be worth testing if you have a splitter to hand might be:
TRAP: gaff, mastic, fantastic, asp-, gasket, jasper, castle (and castor, castigate), rather
BATH: asp, mass (and cast, caster, caste), alas, fasten
missing from the dictionary: bastion, crass

So your TRAP ones are all TRAP in RP, except 'castle', and 'rather', which is, as I say, clearly an independent analogy. Oh, and "castor" (except for "Castor", which being a loanword takes TRAP. Wait, does that mean (given American BATH loanwords) that some US dialects say "castor" for Castor and "Castor" for castor?). Castigate I've heard either way, but I'd always have TRAP. I think your "castor" must just be an irregularity, given both the phonological context and the opposite vowel in 'caster', which should probably already have been homophonous by then.

"Castle" is an interesting one, since it indicates that your "BATH" split happened after the loss of /t/, and hence after the British one. However, it could be irregular, and the evidence of "fasten" points the opposite way.

On cast, caster, and fasten, there's agreement. "Asp" is the only -sp# word with TRAP in SSBE (though a couple are variable), so analogy is not surprising. -s# seems to be where the SSBE shift was most incomplete, because it's a total mess, which the US seems to have completed. [eg traditionally BATH Mass, but TRAP mass, though the former has analogised to the latter for most speakers now.]
Also TRAP: ant (but no other ant- words), can't (but not cant)
[/quote]
Whereas here, there's no similarity - we have BATH can't but TRAP cant. Most BATH -ant words followed a different route, originating in French borrowings (chant, grant, plant, aunt, vantage), while 'shan't' may be come from vocalised 'l'. I'm not sure if these words were PALM, but analogised to TRAP in the North, or if they were another category all along. In any case, this can't explain the irregular "can't" and "slant".
Is it? It has TRAP in America.
Yeah, not sure how that happened!

Nortaneous
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Re: English Dialects

Post by Nortaneous » 20 Feb 2019 09:57

Salmoneus wrote:
19 Feb 2019 18:39
So your TRAP ones are all TRAP in RP, except 'castle', and 'rather', which is, as I say, clearly an independent analogy. Oh, and "castor" (except for "Castor", which being a loanword takes TRAP. Wait, does that mean (given American BATH loanwords) that some US dialects say "castor" for Castor and "Castor" for castor?). Castigate I've heard either way, but I'd always have TRAP. I think your "castor" must just be an irregularity, given both the phonological context and the opposite vowel in 'caster', which should probably already have been homophonous by then.
"Castor" as in Castor and Pollux? The Latin lexical stratum takes TRAP in America, not PALM. But I don't know if the dialect of the dictionary would've been any different - Castor isn't in it.

(And loanwords in the dictionary that don't take TRAP take PALM, not BATH: guava, guano, lakh...)
On cast, caster, and fasten, there's agreement. "Asp" is the only -sp# word with TRAP in SSBE (though a couple are variable), so analogy is not surprising. -s# seems to be where the SSBE shift was most incomplete, because it's a total mess, which the US seems to have completed. [eg traditionally BATH Mass, but TRAP mass, though the former has analogised to the latter for most speakers now.]
TRAP: answer, basket, bass, cassava (with initial stress!), castrel (i.e. kestrel), dastard, fastidious, gas, gastric, gather, grand, hasp, hassock, hast, lasso, lather, mantel, mantis, pantaloon, all panth- words, pantry, passenger, passible, pastern, phantom, plant, plantain, plasm, plastic, ranch, rant, rascal, scant, shanty, tantalize, tantamount, tantrum, tassel, all trans- words


BATH: advance, advantage, ant, ask, ass, chance, chant, fast, flask, gasp, ghastly, glance, glass, graft, grant, grass, haft, lass, lath, mandarin (/ˌmandaˈri:n/?!), masque, Mass, mass, nasty, pant, pass, passage, Passover, passport, past, pastime, pastor, pasture, plaster, prance, raft, rafter, rasp, shan't, slant, staff, stanch, task, trance, vast

PALM: calf, calve, half, laugh, salve,
PALM: haunch, haunt, gaunt, gauntlet, jaunt, jaunty, launch, launder, taunt, vaunt (given as PALM or THOUGHT)
PALM: aunt
(In AmEng now, the first set takes TRAP and the second takes THOUGHT. "Aunt", of course, varies.)

Also:
/z/ in "basilisk" - presumably /s/ is a spelling pronunciation
THOUGHT in "falcon" - the spelling pronunciation hadn't caught on yet in the 1890s
either THOUGHT or GOAT in "groat" and "groats" (now always GOAT)
LOT in "halibut" and "scallop" (now TRAP, I think - spelling pronunciation, but wouldn't we expect THOUGHT? and TRAP in "shallop")
also LOT in "wallet", "wallop", "wallow", "walnut"
TRAP in "palmetto"
w + NORTH (i.e. THOUGHT + -r): all quart- words, vs. default LOT for qua- (quart- varies in AmEng)
START (i.e. PALM + -r): sarsparilla (always /sæs-/ now)
I've been pronouncing "talon" wrong all my life, apparently it has initial stress

Unstressed 'short' <a> is given as BATH, so you get alternations like /ˈgrætɪtu:d/ vs. /graˈtu:ɪtʌs/.

gokupwned5
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Re: English Dialects

Post by gokupwned5 » 24 Jul 2019 19:51

Here are mine:

Code: Select all

KIT [ɪ]
DRESS [ɛ]
TRAP [æ]
LOT [ɑ]
STRUT [ə]
FOOT [ʊ]
BATH [æ]
CLOTH [ɑ]
NURSE [ɚ]
FLEECE [i]
FACE [ɛɪ̯]
PALM [ɑ]
THOUGHT [ɑ]
GOAT [ɔʊ̯]
GOOSE [uʊ̯]
PRICE [aɪ̯]
CHOICE [ɔɪ̯]
MOUTH [æʊ̯]
NEAR [iɚ]
SQUARE [ɛɚ]
START [ɑɚ]
NORTH [ɔɚ]
FORCE [ɔɚ]
CURE [jɔɚ ~ jɚ] - [jɔɚ] is mostly in careful speech. [jɚ] is used otherwise.
happY [i]
lettER [ɚ]
commA [ə]
My dialect also has lengthened vowels in front of voiced obstruents and nasals that are in coda position. For example, beat is pronounced [biʔ ~ bit̚], whereas bead is pronounced [biːɾ ~ biːɪ̯ɾ]. Sometimes, long [iː] and [uːʊ̯] can become the diphthongs [iːɪ̯] and [uːʊ̯]. That results in the following vowel inventory:

/i ɪ ʊ ə ɛ æ ɑ/
/ɛɪ̯ ɔɪ̯ aɪ̯ uʊ̯ ɔʊ̯ æʊ̯/
/iɚ ɛɚ ɔɚ ɑɚ ɚ/
/iː~iːɪ̯ ɪː ʊː əː ɛː æː ɑː/
/ɛːɪ̯ ɔːɪ̯ aːɪ̯ uːʊ̯ ɔːʊ̯ æːʊ̯/
/iːɚ ɛːɚ ɔːɚ ɑːɚ ɚː/

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