Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

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CarsonDaConlanger
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Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 19 Feb 2019 00:51

So the wikipedia article on Proto-Indo-European nouns only lists endings for thematic/athematic and animate/neuter. When PIE animate split to masculine vs feminine did the two genders get different endings? If so could someone give me resources on those? If not, how did its daughter languages develop them?

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 19 Feb 2019 01:20

CarsonDaConlanger wrote:
19 Feb 2019 00:51
So the wikipedia article on Proto-Indo-European nouns only lists endings for thematic/athematic and animate/neuter. When PIE animate split to masculine vs feminine did the two genders get different endings? If so could someone give me resources on those? If not, how did its daughter languages develop them?
PIE later developed at least two feminine declensions, viz. the -ā stems and the -ī stems (the so-called "devī" declension). The feminine nouns in -ā (-eH₂) are the source of the "first declension" in Latin and Greek, the -ī (-iH₂) is only continued marginally in languages outside of Indo-Iranian. There are a lot of theories about where these might have come from--both include -H₂ and both seem to create feminine forms of masculine nouns, so they were definitely derived later (Hittite not having a feminine declension seems to support that as well). The Wikipedia article "Proto Indo-European nominals" has this to say about it: "The feminine ending is thought to have developed from a collective/abstract suffix *-h₂ that also gave rise to the neuter collective."

These two declensions were both ultimately athematic in origin, i.e. they're just laryngeal + athematic animate endings (the only difference being no -s in the nominative singular). But the -ā stems at least came to be more like the thematic declension in daughter languages (in Latin and Greek, the first declension shares unique characteristics with the thematic second declension, like the borrowed endings from pronouns, that the declensions derived from athematic forms don't).

Here's a reconstruction of a PIE u-stem adjective with masculine, feminine, and neuter forms: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... an/ténh₂us

In this case the feminine form is created with -ī stem feminine declension.

And here's a reconstruction of a PIE thematic -os adjective, using the -ā (-eH₂) stem forms for the feminine: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... n/dlongʰos

Hope this helps [:)]

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 19 Feb 2019 04:31

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
19 Feb 2019 01:20
PIE later developed at least two feminine declensions, viz. the -ā stems and the -ī stems (the so-called "devī" declension). The feminine nouns in -ā (-eH₂) are the source of the "first declension" in Latin and Greek, the -ī (-iH₂) is only continued marginally in languages outside of Indo-Iranian. There are a lot of theories about where these might have come from--both include -H₂ and both seem to create feminine forms of masculine nouns, so they were definitely derived later (Hittite not having a feminine declension seems to support that as well). The Wikipedia article "Proto Indo-European nominals" has this to say about it: "The feminine ending is thought to have developed from a collective/abstract suffix *-h₂ that also gave rise to the neuter collective."

These two declensions were both ultimately athematic in origin, i.e. they're just laryngeal + athematic animate endings (the only difference being no -s in the nominative singular). But the -ā stems at least came to be more like the thematic declension in daughter languages (in Latin and Greek, the first declension shares unique characteristics with the thematic second declension, like the borrowed endings from pronouns, that the declensions derived from athematic forms don't).

Here's a reconstruction of a PIE u-stem adjective with masculine, feminine, and neuter forms: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... an/ténh₂us

In this case the feminine form is created with -ī stem feminine declension.

And here's a reconstruction of a PIE thematic -os adjective, using the -ā (-eH₂) stem forms for the feminine: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... n/dlongʰos

Hope this helps [:)]
ThanksI I found an article with a few of the declensions but it doesn't show all of them. (It lists them then the section is blank)

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by Zekoslav » 19 Feb 2019 11:07

It's really only the so-called "thematic declension", i.e. o-stems for masculine/neuter and ā-stems for feminine (plus the less productive ī-stems, as mentioned by KaiTheHomoSapien) which distinguishes all three genders: in other declensions, masculine and feminine have the same endings.

Now, some languages, most notably Indo-Iranian and to a lesser extent Balto-Slavic, partially extended the distinction to other declensions, but to study that you'll have to check Sanskrit and Old Church Slavonic declensions in addition to the PIE. one. I'll gladly provide all the information I know if you're interested.
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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 19 Feb 2019 18:39

Zekoslav wrote:
19 Feb 2019 11:07
It's really only the so-called "thematic declension", i.e. o-stems for masculine/neuter and ā-stems for feminine (plus the less productive ī-stems, as mentioned by KaiTheHomoSapien) which distinguishes all three genders: in other declensions, masculine and feminine have the same endings.

Now, some languages, most notably Indo-Iranian and to a lesser extent Balto-Slavic, partially extended the distinction to other declensions, but to study that you'll have to check Sanskrit and Old Church Slavonic declensions in addition to the PIE. one. I'll gladly provide all the information I know if you're interested.
Thanks! Could you maybe provide me with some info on the declensions not shown in the Wiktionary? Namely the -u -n -r -r/n and consonant stems? I'm still trying to decide how the declensions are inherited then I'll see what to do about the genders.

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 19 Feb 2019 19:15

Well, here are some links to reconstructed declensions of the various PIE noun stems:

I-stem (animate): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/mértis
I-stem (neuter): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... opean/móri

U-stem (animate): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/suHnús
U-stem (neuter): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... opean/dóru

The u- and i- stems are essentially parallels. The cases alternate with full-grade forms (eu, ei) and zero-grade (w, y). Where the u-stem has w or eu, the I-stem has y or ei, in other words.

R-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/ph₂tḗr

r-stems tend to alternate between a lengthened ē (or ō), full e, and zero-grade r (syllabic). The n- and other sonorant-stems follow a similar pattern:

N-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... pean/léymō

L-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/h₂ébōl

M-stem (possibly the only one): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... an/dʰéǵʰōm

Keep in mind these sonorant stem nouns, despite being masc/fem, have no -s in the nominative singular per Szemerenyi's law.

R/N-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... pean/wódr̥

Here's a link where you can find other reconstructions, including various consonant stems that I didn't list here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category ... pean_nouns

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 20 Feb 2019 00:30

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
19 Feb 2019 19:15
Well, here are some links to reconstructed declensions of the various PIE noun stems:

I-stem (animate): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/mértis
I-stem (neuter): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... opean/móri

U-stem (animate): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/suHnús
U-stem (neuter): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... opean/dóru

The u- and i- stems are essentially parallels. The cases alternate with full-grade forms (eu, ei) and zero-grade (w, y). Where the u-stem has w or eu, the I-stem has y or ei, in other words.

R-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/ph₂tḗr

r-stems tend to alternate between a lengthened ē (or ō), full e, and zero-grade r (syllabic). The n- and other sonorant-stems follow a similar pattern:

N-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... pean/léymō

L-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... ean/h₂ébōl

M-stem (possibly the only one): https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... an/dʰéǵʰōm

Keep in mind these sonorant stem nouns, despite being masc/fem, have no -s in the nominative singular per Szemerenyi's law.

R/N-stem: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstr ... pean/wódr̥

Here's a link where you can find other reconstructions, including various consonant stems that I didn't list here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category ... pean_nouns
Thank you! You and Zekoslav been a huge help!

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by Zekoslav » 20 Feb 2019 11:05

Once again, I'd like to note that the attested languages have mostly done away with root ablaut in noun and adjective declension, so with the exception of some consonant stems it's reconstructed solely by internal reconstruction.

For realism's sake, i- and u-stems (with the exception of some neuters such as *doru and *ǵonu) should have the same ablaut grade in the root throughout the paradigm (and the corresponding barytone/oxytone accent pattern), since that's what even the oldest IE. languages attest (i.e. there's no *méntis, *mn̥téys attested, only *mn̥tís, *mn̥téys). There's quite a bit more insecurity in the interpretation/reconstruction of the so-called proterodynamic ablaut pattern than can be guessed from the info published on Wikipedia.
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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 20 Feb 2019 17:13

Right, most of the reconstructions on Wikipedia/Wiktionary seem to be based on Ringe (2006), which is not the final word on this (not there ever will be a final word on it). I’ve used it, along with Sihler, for the nouns in my conlang because my goal was to be as “archaic” as possible. But it’s true that the daughter languages largely don’t attest the root ablaut shown in most of these reconstructions.

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 20 Feb 2019 21:01

I think I'll keep it in my 3rd declension (-i -u -r -n -l) to add a bit of spice to it, although I'm merging *o *ō with *a *ā and all the syllabic consonants also end up as a ā with the exception of *h1 > e. It adds a nice touch of irregularity that keeps you on your toes. [;)]

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 28 Feb 2019 15:29

Hey another question about PIE (I'm not great at understanding all of this lol):
Did verbs not agree to gender? If not how did the daughter languages get that feature?

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Re: Proto-Indo-European Declension/genders

Post by Zekoslav » 28 Feb 2019 15:41

Nope, finite verbs didn't agree in gender, but participles did, since they were actually adjectives. What happened is that original finite verb forms were often replaced by analytic constructions containing participles, which sort of introduced gender agreement into the verbal system. Some Slavic languages (Slovenian and I think Sorbian) also reformed some inherited personal endings to be more similar to pronouns (e. g. 1st person plural -m > -my because the pronoun was also my), which could also introduce gender agreement!
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