(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by taylorS » 31 Jan 2015 09:19

HinGambleGoth wrote:What is up with the sequence /kl/ in english, sounds like [qʰɫ] or even [χɫ] to me.
In my dialect initial /ɫ/ seems to be turning into an uvular trill! [O.O] I definitely have backing of velars in that environment, too.

I swear, English is becoming bizarre.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by taylorS » 31 Jan 2015 09:23

GrandPiano wrote:I've noticed that my aspirated stops seem like they might be somewhat aspirated, so my [kʰ] might actually be [k͡xʰ] or [kˣʰ] (if that's how you transcribe mild affrication). Similarly, my [tʰ] might be [t͡sʰ] or [tˢʰ] and (much less noticeable) my [pʰ] might be [p͡ɸʰ] or [pᶲʰ].
This is actually a sound change I have happen in my Future English, I then have "s + Stop" clusters become new aspirated stops.

In my own speech it's most obvious with /kʰ/ > [k͡xʰ]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by taylorS » 31 Jan 2015 09:29

shimobaatar wrote:Affricatization (?) certainly isn't off the table, although I personally don't hear it often; the uvular pronunciation is what I'm finding hard to believe.
I believe him because I have uvular allophones of velars before /l/ in my own speech. For me <claw> sounds like [qχʟɑː]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HinGambleGoth » 31 Jan 2015 13:12

GrandPiano wrote:I've noticed that my aspirated stops seem like they might be somewhat aspirated, so my [kʰ] might actually be [k͡xʰ] or [kˣʰ] (if that's how you transcribe mild affrication). Similarly, my [tʰ] might be [t͡sʰ] or [tˢʰ] and (much less noticeable) my [pʰ] might be [p͡ɸʰ] or [pᶲʰ].
High english consonant shift?
taylorS wrote: In my own speech it's most obvious with /kʰ/ > [k͡xʰ]
Swiss english?

zime zu beginn speaching liche de germans den. dat would be goot.
taylorS wrote: I swear, English is becoming bizarre.
Swiss german did a consonant shift before it was cool.
[:D] :se-og: :fi-al2: :swe:
[:)] :nor: :usa: :uk:
:wat: :dan: :se-sk2: :eng:
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by GrandPiano » 31 Jan 2015 14:05

taylorS wrote:In my dialect initial /ɫ/ seems to be turning into an uvular trill! [O.O]
Tell me more about this "initial /ɫ/".
taylorS wrote:In my own speech it's most obvious with /kʰ/ > [k͡xʰ]
Yes, same here.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 31 Jan 2015 20:09

taylorS wrote:I swear, English is becoming bizarre.
Like it isn't already?
taylorS wrote:In my dialect initial /ɫ/ seems to be turning into an uvular trill! [O.O] I definitely have backing of velars in that environment, too.
taylorS wrote:I believe him because I have uvular allophones of velars before /l/ in my own speech. For me <claw> sounds like [qχʟɑː]
I find these claims also hard to believe.
GrandPiano wrote:Tell me more about this "initial /ɫ/".
[+1]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 31 Jan 2015 21:59

My /kl/ should be realized as [kɬ]
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Post by GrandPiano » 31 Jan 2015 22:34

So, I'm trying to figure out how to divide speech into prosodic feet. Would this be a correct division of the first sentence in the Wikipedia page on the subject into feet?

The foot is | the basic | metrical | unit | that forms | part of | a line | of verse | in most | Western | traditions | of poetry, | including | English | accentual- | syllabic | verse and | the quantitative | meter | of classical | ancient | Greek | and Latin | poetry.
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:jpn: - A2

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nortaneous » 31 Jan 2015 22:54

I have a future English with exactly those sound changes -- kl > qX, t k > ts kx~x, 5 > R.

Not sure what to do with p -- might leave it, but I already have a conlang with /p_h b t ts k/, which is pretty close to /p_h p t ts tS_h tS k kx/. (Not sure what to do with the things that come from /tS tr/ and /dZ dr/ either.)

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 01 Feb 2015 01:33

What are the components of the phrase "¿Cuántos hay?", like a gloss.
I see this "hay" in a lot of words, like "no hay de que"
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 01 Feb 2015 01:43

Ahzoh wrote:What are the components of the phrase "¿Cuántos hay?", like a gloss.
I see this "hay" in a lot of words, like "no hay de que"
¿cuántos hay?
cuánt-o-s hay
how_many-MASC-PL exist.3p
How many are there?

Apparently "hay" is a form of "haber". I was never taught that.

I think it would also be possible to gloss "cuántos" as:

cuántos
cuánt-os
how_many-MASC.PL

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Post by Thrice Xandvii » 01 Feb 2015 07:35

Ahzoh wrote:What are the components of the phrase "¿Cuántos hay?", like a gloss.
I see this "hay" in a lot of words, like "no hay de que"
As Shim pointed out, <hay> is a form of haber, which is the auxiliary verb used in perfect constructions (have/has eaten, etc.). Hay is used as both "there is" and "there are."

¡Hay demasiado gatos aquí!
There are too many cats here.
(I'd gloss this, but it is pretty much a direct translation.)

Likewise, the word "había" can be used to mean "there were/was." These are not "normal" conjugations of the verb, but as I understand it, merely forms that have been calcified and do not change to inflect anymore, but carry those meanings only.

no hay de qué
NEG there-is/are of what/that
"there's nothing of that"
don't worry about it, think nothing of it
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 01 Feb 2015 07:50

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:What are the components of the phrase "¿Cuántos hay?", like a gloss.
I see this "hay" in a lot of words, like "no hay de que"
As Shim pointed out, <hay> is a form of haber, which is the auxiliary verb used in perfect constructions (have/has eaten, etc.). Hay is used as both "there is" and "there are."

¡Hay demasiado gatos aquí!
There are too many cats here.
(I'd gloss this, but it is pretty much a direct translation.)

Likewise, the word "habia" can be used to mean "there were/was." These are not "normal" conjugations of the verb, but as I understand it, merely forms that have been calcified and do not change to inflect anymore, but carry those meanings only.

no hay de qué
NEG there-is/are of what/that
"there's nothing of that"
don't worry about it, think nothing of it
Yeah, according to Wiktionary, the 3s.PRES.IND form of haber is ha when it's an auxiliary, but it's hay when it's being used to mean "there is". Similarly, the 3p.PRES.IND form is han when it's an auxiliary, but hay when it's being used to mean "there are".

Four years and counting of Spanish and I just learned that today from Wiktionary…

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Post by Thrice Xandvii » 01 Feb 2015 08:17

I should also mention that using hay in the negative usually translates more toward "there isn't any" or "there's none" than to the more direct "there isn't". If you were asked if there were any garlic in the pantry, you could respond simply "no hay" instead of having to say "no, no hay ajo."

That would be the reason that "no hay de qué" is glossed how it was above.

Four years and counting of Spanish and I just learned that today from Wiktionary…
I'm not sure why I knew that from High School, Shim, but I doubt we were taught it specifically. I was one of those kids who would've asked after class for a fuller explanation of the verb and how it worked. I never settled for "you'll learn that next year" or "that's just what it means" even in math when the explanation may have been over my head, the fact that there -was- an explanation was important to how I internalized information.
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Post by shimobaatar » 01 Feb 2015 08:35

Thrice Xandvii wrote:I'm not sure why I knew that from High School, Shim, but I doubt we were taught it specifically. I was one of those kids who would've asked after class for a fuller explanation of the verb and how it worked. I never settled for "you'll learn that next year" or "that's just what it means" even in math when the explanation may have been over my head, the fact that there -was- an explanation was important to how I internalized information.
[+1] I know the feeling.

I don't know what's up with my school's curriculum - we haven't even technically covered haber in its auxiliary use yet.

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Post by Ahzoh » 01 Feb 2015 08:38

Aye, I would feel better learning this language if I had glosses...
On the other hand, the course I'm taking is meant for those who failed it previously (and had experience before) and not for someone with no previous knowledge.
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Post by Thrice Xandvii » 01 Feb 2015 08:45

shimobaatar wrote: [+1] I know the feeling.

I don't know what's up with my school's curriculum - we haven't even technically covered haber in its auxiliary use yet.
Really?! And you're four years in? IIRC, we covered perfects in Spanish II, and then more fully in III. What forms have you learned? By the time we were done with Spanish IV, we had present, gerunds, preterite, imperfect, subjunctive, future, conditional, perfects, going to constructions, a buttload of idioms, and vocabulary ranging from asparagus to underwear!
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Post by shimobaatar » 01 Feb 2015 08:48

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
shimobaatar wrote: [+1] I know the feeling.

I don't know what's up with my school's curriculum - we haven't even technically covered haber in its auxiliary use yet.
Really?! And you're four years in? IIRC, we covered perfects in Spanish II, and then more fully in III. What forms have you learned? By the time we were done with Spanish IV, we had present, gerunds, preterite, imperfect, subjunctive, future, conditional, perfects, going to constructions, a buttload of idioms, and vocabulary ranging from asparagus to underwear!
We've done present, gerunds, preterite, and imperfect. It's not a shortened class or an elective or anything (they even call the classes I've been in "honors" for some reason) - the curriculum just really sucks, apparently more than I thought.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » 01 Feb 2015 15:09

shimobaatar wrote:
Lambuzhao wrote:No, quite the opposite. Quite the point, actually.

In Ancient :grc: there are enclitic 1st and 2nd singular pronouns, which obey the Acute on Ultima Rule pretty regularly.

But the 1st and 2nd PLURAL pronouns were all perispomena, i.e. they had a circumflex over a final long syllable. There were no enclitics among those pronouns; they literally were packing "too much junk in the trunk". [xP]

Thus, your example of σῶσoν ἡμᾶς is a perfect counterexample of the Acute on Ultima Rule.

[img]http://saronikosnet.gr/wordpress/wp-con ... ΑΡΙΣΤΩ.gif[/img]
Uh… actually, almost all of the accent discussion above was going way over my head, so I only read a small part of that post because I recognized σῶσoν[:$]

Whoops, didn't mean to overlook this.

Basically, your phrase "σῶσoν ἡμᾶς" has the last word ἡμᾶς. Normally, it isn't an enclitic word. Also, it has a wonking-big long vowel in each syllable. Thus the Ultima Rule cannot apply

[cross] σῶσóν ἡμας [grumpy long alpha says :mrred: "gimme dat pitch accent"]
[tick] σῶσoν ἡμᾶς

Another way to look at it is that the syllable /σoν/ is too far away (too many morae away) from the end of the phrase to receive the secondary pitch accent. So the next pitch accent has to occur somewhere in the following word.

I'm glad I could at least accidentally contribute something, though… if I did in fact do so?
IMHO Heck ye@h! [:D]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » 01 Feb 2015 15:16

shimobaatar wrote:
Thrice Xandvii wrote:I'm not sure why I knew that from High School, Shim, but I doubt we were taught it specifically. I was one of those kids who would've asked after class for a fuller explanation of the verb and how it worked. I never settled for "you'll learn that next year" or "that's just what it means" even in math when the explanation may have been over my head, the fact that there -was- an explanation was important to how I internalized information.
[+1] I know the feeling.

I don't know what's up with my school's curriculum - we haven't even technically covered haber in its auxiliary use yet.
In short - the curriculum's embattled.

As a teacher, it's all I can do to get most of what Thrice listed by Spanish III covered nowadays. And then, ever since about 5 years ago, Duh District mandates that we have only 2 required years of L2 (W*T*F*!!?!) and we've had to slim it down and cherry-pick even more to get it into those 2 years. Third year isn't even a real option anymore. Talk about your electivos optativos. Thank god Formal Commands get taught relatively early, so most of the grunt-work of the Subjunctive (rules of formation) is covered.

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