(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 29 Jul 2015 02:28

Creyeditor wrote:
Ear of the Sphinx wrote:Are there languages with /ɕ/ or /ʃ/ but no /s/?
IIUC, you want a language where alle coronal fricatives are post-alveolar and where one of them is palatalized?
I think, you won't find any language descripion that has this contrast. If there are two sibilants, many people asume, that one of them has to be the more basic one, even if the phonetic recording could be used as evidence against that.
I recently recorded an Indonesian speaker and he clearly had a post-alveolar non-palatalized non-rounded sibilant as his 'default'. Since Indonesian has /ɕ/ as a loan phoneme, you might call that a case where the two co-exist.
I understood Ear of Sphinx to mean a language that has one sibilant, and that it be some kind of post-alveolar sibilant rather than alveolar/dental.

From their reply to Shimobaatar's comment (which I commented on too, apparently around the same time EoS was writing), they're also looking for a system where the only sibilant is post-alveolar and does not contrast with something could be seen as an /s/-substitute, e.g. /θ/ (which in such systems appears to have developed from an older /s/).

I suppose from a sound change perspective, it could be possible, but potentially unstable:

Say you have a language with only one fricative, either /h/ or /x/. This fricative fronts to [ç] in some environments (typically adjacent to front vowels, e.g. ich-laut in German) with [ç] further fronting to [ɕ] or [ʃ] in later years.

Now, let's say something happens which causes the original fronting environment to disappear, causing [h] and [ʃ] to become distinct phonemes, /h/ and /ʃ/. At this stage, /ʃ/ is the only sibilant in the language's inventory.

I'd imagine that such a system would be unstable, however, and that at some point /ʃ/ would shift further forward to if that space were to remain empty. [ʃ] might be maintained as an allophone, but at some point we might expect as realisation as well, at least from what a brief internet search can show me.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ear of the Sphinx » 29 Jul 2015 03:25

I meant a language with only one coronal fricative, which is palatalized by default.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 29 Jul 2015 05:03

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:I meant a language with only one coronal fricative, which is palatalized by default.
I'm not sure there is a natlang like that. I could be wrong, but I don't think I've ever come across one. And, as has been said, if such a fricative inventory were to arise in a language, it might not be the most stable.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by kanejam » 29 Jul 2015 06:38

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:I meant a language with only one coronal fricative, which is palatalized by default.
I'm sure this is possible, and I thought there was an example amongst the Formosan languages, although now that I check they all seem to have /s/. Still, Turkmen is pretty close to what you're looking for.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Jul 2015 15:56

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:I meant a language with only one coronal fricative, which is palatalized by default.
Okay, I think there are such languages, but you would have to look for phonetic descriptions, because in phonemic descriptions the only sibilant will be /s/ by default.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 29 Jul 2015 19:32

Creyeditor wrote:
Ear of the Sphinx wrote:I meant a language with only one coronal fricative, which is palatalized by default.
Okay, I think there are such languages, but you would have to look for phonetic descriptions, because in phonemic descriptions the only sibilant will be /s/ by default.
So a hypothetical language like this would have a phoneme defined as /s/, but that phoneme would more often than not actually be realized as a more "palatalized" sound?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 29 Jul 2015 21:37

That would be my guess, yes.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ephraim » 29 Jul 2015 22:56

Ear of the Sphinx wrote:I meant a language with only one coronal fricative, which is palatalized by default.
Is "palatalized" the term you are looking for? A distinction is sometimes made between hissing sibilants and hushing sibilants. The hissing sibilants are the sound covered by the IPA symbols . The hushing sounds sibilants are [ʃ ʒ ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ]. These symbols may of course cover a wide range of articulations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibilant

There's no sharp line between hissing and hushing sibilants. Many languages have a retracted alveolar (often transcribed as [s̠] or [ṣ]) with a much more hushing quality than regular hissing . It's not quite post-alveolar, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless ... _fricative

The retracted alveolar is quite common in languages with only one sibilant, I think. Languages that distinguish a hissing and hushing sibilant tend to have a more (denti-]alveolar articulation for the hissing sibilant.
https://www.academia.edu/6149816/Proto-Indo-Euro_s

Perhaps Middle Vietnamese qualifies as having only two hushing sibilants, but I'm sure how certain we are about the pronunciation. From Wikipedia:
Few languages with sibilants are missing the hissing type, but they do exist. Middle Vietnamese is normally reconstructed with two sibilant fricatives, both hushing (one retroflex, one alveolo-palatal). Some languages have only a single hushing sibilant and no hissing sibilant, such as southern peninsular Spanish dialects of the "ceceo" type which have replaced the former hissing fricative with [θ], leaving only [tʃ].
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibilant# ... _sibilants

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by tezcatlip0ca » 08 Aug 2015 01:12

What does a handwritten cursive ү look like? Is it written something like gamma, for example?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 09 Aug 2015 04:08

tezcatlip0ca wrote:What does a handwritten cursive ү look like? Is it written something like gamma, for example?
Assuming you mean the Cyrillic letter <Ү ү>, this video of someone rather slowly writing out the Mongolian Cyrillic alphabet in cursive might be of some assistance, hopefully.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by tezcatlip0ca » 09 Aug 2015 07:27

shimobaatar wrote:
tezcatlip0ca wrote:What does a handwritten cursive ү look like? Is it written something like gamma, for example?
Assuming you mean the Cyrillic letter <Ү ү>, this video of someone rather slowly writing out the Mongolian Cyrillic alphabet in cursive might be of some assistance, hopefully.
Yes, I meant that letter. Thanks!

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Alomar » 17 Aug 2015 05:40

Does anyone have an explanation for why 'daughter' cannot be used vocatively?


All of the other kinship terms for immediate family members can be used for direct address (or at least have a derived term for this): mom, dad, bro, sis, son... Why not daughter? Is it a patriarchy thing, or is it a 'daughter'-is-too-long-of-a-word thing? (Then why not go 'dau' the way we did with bro from brother?)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 17 Aug 2015 06:28

Alomar wrote:Does anyone have an explanation for why 'daughter' cannot be used vocatively?


All of the other kinship terms for immediate family members can be used for direct address (or at least have a derived term for this): mom, dad, bro, sis, son... Why not daughter? Is it a patriarchy thing, or is it a 'daughter'-is-too-long-of-a-word thing? (Then why not go 'dau' the way we did with bro from brother?)
I've heard "daughter" used vocatively before. Not by speakers of my own dialect, but I have heard it. It sounds rather archaic to me, but the use of "son" vocatively does as well.

This is probably just an idiolectal thing instead of a feature of my dialect in general, but I actually only feel right using the words "mom" and "dad" vocatively, out of the common kinship terms.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 18 Aug 2015 03:49

shimobaatar wrote:
Alomar wrote:Does anyone have an explanation for why 'daughter' cannot be used vocatively?

I've heard "daughter" used vocatively before.

[+1]
shimobaatar wrote:Not by speakers of my own dialect, but I have heard it.
I think it might have been speakers of my own 'lect. Or maybe not.
Alomar wrote:... Why not daughter? ... is it a "'daughter'-is-too-long-of-a-word thing"? …
This, in part; but also:
shimobaatar wrote:This is probably just an idiolectal thing

This.
shimobaatar wrote: It sounds rather archaic to me, but the use of "son" vocatively does as well.
I've got no trouble with "son" vocatively; I know for a fact it's common in my native 'lect.

But in "Ran", when one of the neighboring kings (Ayabe?) says "Son-in-law [that is, Saburo] will be angry" just after this scene (well, he says it in Japanese; so I guess it's the subtitle translator who actually said it), that seemed sort of stilted to me. But not too stilted, I guess.

However I think "daughter-in-law" used vocatively would definitely be "too long a word", to me and speakers of my 'lect.
It's a guess, so it could be wrong.
shimobaatar wrote:This is probably just an idiolectal thing instead of a feature of my dialect in general, but I actually only feel right using the words "mom" and "dad" vocatively, out of the common kinship terms.
Not me, so probably not my 'lect.

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If a female otaku feels about a male character the way a male otaku feels about his "waifu", what does she call him?
Also;
What' Japanese for "one true pairing"?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 18 Aug 2015 04:12

eldin raigmore wrote:If a female otaku feels about a male character the way a male otaku feels about his "waifu", what does she call him?
Also;
What' Japanese for "one true pairing"?
She calls it "husubando", by anology.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 18 Aug 2015 04:13

eldin raigmore wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:This is probably just an idiolectal thing instead of a feature of my dialect in general, but I actually only feel right using the words "mom" and "dad" vocatively, out of the common kinship terms.
Not me, so probably not my 'lect.
We probably have a similar ideolect (shimo's); but I'd say that that doesn't feel right either.
According to A Dictionary of Epithets and Terms of Address it's archaic.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 18 Aug 2015 04:14

Ahzoh wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:If a female otaku feels about a male character the way a male otaku feels about his "waifu", what does she call him?
Also;
What' Japanese for "one true pairing"?
She calls it "husubando", by anology.
Doesn't it feel weird when you have to use Urban dictionary as a source. [xD]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 18 Aug 2015 04:15

qwed117 wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:This is probably just an idiolectal thing instead of a feature of my dialect in general, but I actually only feel right using the words "mom" and "dad" vocatively, out of the common kinship terms.
Not me, so probably not my 'lect.
We probably have a similar ideolect (shimo's); but I'd say that that doesn't feel right either.
According to A Dictionary of Epithets and Terms of Address it's archaic.
I hear it fairly often, especially when you try to "school" someone:
"Now listen up, son, you've no fucking idea what economics is about"

Also, most people say "girl" as a vocative than daughter because shorter.
qwed117 wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:If a female otaku feels about a male character the way a male otaku feels about his "waifu", what does she call him?
Also;
What' Japanese for "one true pairing"?
She calls it "husubando", by anology.
Doesn't it feel weird when you have to use Urban dictionary as a source. [xD]
Actually, I posted that first and then google'd it. Earlier, I heard an otaku talk about it.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 18 Aug 2015 04:19

Ahzoh wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:
shimobaatar wrote:This is probably just an idiolectal thing instead of a feature of my dialect in general, but I actually only feel right using the words "mom" and "dad" vocatively, out of the common kinship terms.
Not me, so probably not my 'lect.
We probably have a similar ideolect (shimo's); but I'd say that that doesn't feel right either.
According to A Dictionary of Epithets and Terms of Address it's archaic.
I hear it fairly often, especially when you try to "school" someone:
"Now listen up, son, you've no fucking idea what economics is about"
Was this relating to wage increase on Yahoo? Cuz I've heard complete idiots there talk about how wage increases would lead to inflation. (Here's a hint, it wouldn't)

I digress.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 18 Aug 2015 04:52

Ahzoh wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:
eldin raigmore wrote:If a female otaku feels about a male character the way a male otaku feels about his "waifu", what does she call him?
Also;
What' Japanese for "one true pairing"?
She calls it "husubando", by anology.
Doesn't it feel weird when you have to use Urban dictionary as a source. [xD]
Actually, I posted that first and then google'd it. Earlier, I heard an otaku talk about it.
OK! Thanks for "husubando", Ahzoh.
But is "one true pairing" a coinage originating in English-speaking fandom?
Wherever it originated, how is it said in Japanese?
And where did it originate, if not in Japan nor some English-speaking country?

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