(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by alynnidalar » 04 Sep 2016 04:17

Sumelic wrote:Dictionaries give generalized, phonemic transcriptions because they're meant to serve a wide audience of people who will have a variety of accents. If you want narrow transcriptions, you'll need to look at sources that focus on specific accents/dialects.
This is an important point to remember. When I was first learning the IPA, I was deeply confused about why the descriptions of where various low vowels were pronounced didn't quite line up with the words that were supposed to be pronounced that way; why does everything keep listing "stock" as having a back vowel when it feels like a central one to me? Finally, I figured out it's because I have a vowel shift that primarily affects my low vowels (the Northern Cities Vowel Shift). The reason I couldn't reconcile what I read with what I said aloud was because they were actually different sounds.

The point being, there is no single transcription of "forest" or any other word in English, so it's to be expected that transcriptions often don't perfectly line up with recordings. Unless the transcription and recording are explicitly said to be of the same dialect (as is on Wiktionary sometimes), in which case if they don't match up, it's probably a transcription error.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 05 Sep 2016 13:21

alynnidalar wrote:I have ... the Northern Cities Vowel Shift
You also have my sympathy! Just kidding, but the Western New York accent always bothered me a bit. I need to get over my prejudices. It's nat your falt!

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 06 Sep 2016 05:48

Speaking of accents...

I've had studied some of my relative's intonations during my stay in Canada. I feel that every year I come back to Canada, these "intonations" get stronger and stronger.

The infamous /au/ diphthong, although not approaching anywhere near "aboot," (I have no idea why some Americans think that), has certainly become fairly centralized. I would say at it's strongest in my relatives it is [əʊ], although it is usually more like [ʌʊ]. My uncle-in-law's /au/ diphthong approaches a quality very similar /ɔ~o/ I have noticed, almost like a monophthong but not quite. Then again am not a phonologist and it's possible I am misinterpreting things.

Other things I've noticed is that there is a pin-pen merger, however it doesn't seem to be limited to just nasals.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 06 Sep 2016 13:48

Ælfwine wrote:The infamous /au/ diphthong, although not approaching anywhere near "aboot," (I have no idea why some Americans think that)
"Aboot the toon" is a Geordie thing: I've no idea what it would be doing in Canada either.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 07 Sep 2016 00:53

If anything, Canadian raising will turn "about" into "aboat". "aboot" is just Americans not knowing what they're talking about.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 09 Sep 2016 04:09

Does anyone know the origin of Eastern European languages transcribing Ho Chi Minh's middle name as /ʂi~ʃi/ including languages already written in the Latin alphabet like Romanian (Și) and Slovenian (Ši)? It seems odd to me that these languages would modify the spelling of a name already written in an alphabet like that

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Post by Dormouse559 » 09 Sep 2016 06:12

Possibly, they're based on the French pronunciation, which is /o ʃi min/. If your question is specifically about why they would respell the name, it's very common to change the spelling of foreign words and names to match the naturalized pronunciation. Ho Chi Minh being such a prominent person, I'm not surprised his name got respelled.

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Post by All4Ɇn » 09 Sep 2016 18:31

Ah that makes sense. Don't know why I didn't think of the French pronunciation. Do you know of any other major figures from the past 200 years or so who've had their name changed in Romanian?

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Post by Dormouse559 » 09 Sep 2016 19:08

Not off the top of my head. I don't speak Romanian. Do British monarchs or the Pope count? Their names are regularly adapted in just about any language you can think of. To clarify, I don't necessarily expect people's names to be respelled, but when it happens to a major historical figure, it doesn't surprise me.

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Post by All4Ɇn » 09 Sep 2016 20:36

With monarchs and popes it doesn't surprise me but this is the first time I've ever seen someone from the past 200 year that isn't a monarch/pope have their name's spelling changed between 2 languages written in the Roman alphabet which is what got me curious about this in the first place

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Post by Avo » 09 Sep 2016 23:01

This is done regularly with foreign names in Latvian: Fransuā Olands, Mišela Obama, Džeimss Bonds.

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Post by loglorn » 10 Sep 2016 01:32

Šons Konerijs was the best Džeimss Bonds, according to Latvians.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 11 Sep 2016 17:08

All4Ɇn wrote:With monarchs and popes it doesn't surprise me but this is the first time I've ever seen someone from the past 200 year that isn't a monarch/pope have their name's spelling changed between 2 languages written in the Roman alphabet which is what got me curious about this in the first place
200 years ago, everybody still had their names not only respelled but entirely reformatted to match the local culture - including by the name-holder themselves. Beethoven often spelled his name "Luigi", and sometimes "Louis", and his works were published under those names in the respective countries. Slightly more than 200 years ago, Mozart went by "Joannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus" (official name), "Joannes Chrisostomus, Wolfgang, Gottlieb" (name according to his father), "Wolfgango Amadeo" (in Italy before 1777), "Wolfgang Amadè" (in Italy after 1777), "Wolfgang Amade" (his signature on his marriage contract), "Wolfgang Adam" (parish register for his marriage), "Wolfgang Gottlieb" (benefit concert for his family), "Wolfgangus Amadeus Mozartus" (signed letters, probably jocular), and "Wolfgang Amadeus" (one government record from his lifetime, several from after his death). His wife called him "Wolfgang Amadeus" in one letter, but she also called herself Konstantia in that letter, even though she was born "Constanze", and used to be known in English as "Constance". Which is Mozart's "real" name? He probably most often called himself "Wolfgang Amadè", "Wolfgang Amadé", or "Wolfgang Amade", interchangeably. Yet he was a German-speaker by birth, and his father clearly thought of his name as being "Gottlieb". On the other hand, he was theoretically named after a man most often known as "Theophilus".
[obviously, 'Amadè', 'Gottlieb' and 'Theophilus' or 'Theophilé' are all 'versions' of the same name]

The idea of everybody having a "name" in the sense of a fixed sequence of phones is quite a new one, really.

For examples more connected to transcription issues, just look at people of Slavic origin, including those who settled in the West. Tchaikovsky has been known as Tchaikowsky, Tchaikowski, Tchaikowskij, Chaikowsky, etc etc. And often somebody who settled in one country, getting a latin-script 'name' there (or whose parents had) would move to another country and have their name respelled to meet local transcribing-from-slavic conventions...



EDIT: small concrete, more modern examples: the Polish pianist Artur Rubenstein is better known as Arthur Rubenstein. Likewise his teacher, Juliusz Wertheim, is often known as Julius Wertheim.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by OTʜᴇB » 11 Sep 2016 19:21

Thinking about questions, is there a set of question components and forms (if I'm saying that correctly), like tenses and aspects? Just writing a huge list of things like:
"What is x? (where x is a noun)"
"What is x? (where x is an adjective)"
etc. etc. etc.
seems like I'm going to miss something. Is there a big list of question forms that I can look through?
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Post by All4Ɇn » 12 Sep 2016 04:19

Thanks for your explanation Salmoneus [:)]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by gestaltist » 12 Sep 2016 11:48

Salmoneus wrote: EDIT: small concrete, more modern examples: the Polish pianist Artur Rubenstein is better known as Arthur Rubenstein. Likewise his teacher, Juliusz Wertheim, is often known as Julius Wertheim.
And Chopin is commonly spelled "Szopen" in Poland.

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Post by Salmoneus » 12 Sep 2016 14:12

gestaltist wrote:
Salmoneus wrote: EDIT: small concrete, more modern examples: the Polish pianist Artur Rubenstein is better known as Arthur Rubenstein. Likewise his teacher, Juliusz Wertheim, is often known as Julius Wertheim.
And Chopin is commonly spelled "Szopen" in Poland.
I never knew that!

Actually, Chopin is a double example of this, then. 'Officially' Fridericus Franciscus Chopin, his 'real' name was Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (he was a second-generation French immigrant, hence the surname, but his family were devotedly Polish-speakers, hence the Christian names). The French, and therefore the rest of the world, conventionally Frankicise his christian names, making him Frédéric Francois Chopin. And now you tell me that the Poles retaliate by Polonizing his surname to make him Fryderyk Franciszek Szopen!


However, All4en is right that it seems weird to an Anglophone reader to see that still happening in the 20th century, because we'd largely long since finished with that, at least in a 3rd-party sense (i.e. people were still doing it for themselves - lots of immigrants to the UK and US in the early 20th century changed their names or their spelling). I'm guessing though that the French, and those in the French cultural sphere (like the Romanians) continued with it longer than we did... unless this is an issue specific to Vietnamese transcription practices.
[In that one example of this happening in English in the 20th century is the persisting use of Wade-Giles spellings even after Pinyin gained official status. Mao was regularly Mao Tse Tung (or Mao Tse-tung) in English-language publications into the 1980s, and that spelling continues sporadically even now (Wikipedia mentions it as an alternative).]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 12 Sep 2016 22:30

Salmoneus wrote:unless this is an issue specific to Vietnamese transcription practices.
That's what I'm beginning to wonder as I can't find similar examples of it occurring
Salmoneus wrote:Mao was regularly Mao Tse Tung (or Mao Tse-tung) in English-language publications into the 1980s, and that spelling continues sporadically even now (Wikipedia mentions it as an alternative).
Another good example is Chiang Kai-Shek whose name is still not commonly written in Pinyin

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 13 Sep 2016 00:37

All4Ɇn wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:Mao was regularly Mao Tse Tung (or Mao Tse-tung) in English-language publications into the 1980s, and that spelling continues sporadically even now (Wikipedia mentions it as an alternative).
Another good example is Chiang Kai-Shek whose name is still not commonly written in Pinyin
It is in my History textbook: it's one of the new ones created by Gove's educational 'reforms', and the decision to write it that way could be a diplomatic nod towards mainland China.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 13 Sep 2016 02:31

Frislander wrote:
All4Ɇn wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:Mao was regularly Mao Tse Tung (or Mao Tse-tung) in English-language publications into the 1980s, and that spelling continues sporadically even now (Wikipedia mentions it as an alternative).
Another good example is Chiang Kai-Shek whose name is still not commonly written in Pinyin
It is in my History textbook: it's one of the new ones created by Gove's educational 'reforms', and the decision to write it that way could be a diplomatic nod towards mainland China.
*blinks*
Your history textbooks mention China?
My word, there HAVE been reforms!

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