(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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qwed117
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 11 Jan 2017 00:54

Xonen wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
Evynova wrote:
cedh wrote:
OTʜᴇB wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
OTʜᴇB wrote:What's the little pause between some vowels and a following plosive that happens unavoidably? As in "step", "tap", or "tag". Is it just a short glottal stop? Or is there some other name for it?
Preglotalization maybe?
How would one show that in IPA?
If it's really preglottalization, you'd IPAfy that as [stɛˀp] [tʰæˀp] [tʰæˀɡ] etc.
I believe ˀ is the symbol for the Danish stød and from what he explains, I think it is what he is referring to. The glottalisation of a consonant is written right next to it, just like aspiration. This mini-glottal stop (it's more of a """"creaky-voication"""") after a vowel is very common in the standard accent (and in Copenhagen), and it's what makes Danish sound so peculiar. Words like hund /hunˀ/ (dog) or læser /ˈlɛˀsʌ/ (read, ind. pres.) have the stød. I'm sure other, lesser-known languages undergo this phenomenon, but I don't have examples.
It's probably just aspiration, given the fact that OtheB is British. From what I notice, BrE has too much aspiration, enough to be seen as a pause
Huh? Aspiration in English occurs between a plosive and a following vowel, but the question is about the opposite situation. Also, hearing aspiration as a "pause" strikes me as odd (at least if your native language has /h/ as a phoneme), but I suppose that's pretty subjective.
I read the reverse. Mea culpa. I would consider this "preaspiration" then. I find it unlikely that there's preglottalization in BrE other than Londoner dialects
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 11 Jan 2017 02:48

qwed117 wrote:
Xonen wrote:
qwed117 wrote:
Evynova wrote:
cedh wrote:
OTʜᴇB wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
OTʜᴇB wrote:What's the little pause between some vowels and a following plosive that happens unavoidably? As in "step", "tap", or "tag". Is it just a short glottal stop? Or is there some other name for it?
Preglotalization maybe?
How would one show that in IPA?
If it's really preglottalization, you'd IPAfy that as [stɛˀp] [tʰæˀp] [tʰæˀɡ] etc.
I believe ˀ is the symbol for the Danish stød and from what he explains, I think it is what he is referring to. The glottalisation of a consonant is written right next to it, just like aspiration. This mini-glottal stop (it's more of a """"creaky-voication"""") after a vowel is very common in the standard accent (and in Copenhagen), and it's what makes Danish sound so peculiar. Words like hund /hunˀ/ (dog) or læser /ˈlɛˀsʌ/ (read, ind. pres.) have the stød. I'm sure other, lesser-known languages undergo this phenomenon, but I don't have examples.
It's probably just aspiration, given the fact that OtheB is British. From what I notice, BrE has too much aspiration, enough to be seen as a pause
Huh? Aspiration in English occurs between a plosive and a following vowel, but the question is about the opposite situation. Also, hearing aspiration as a "pause" strikes me as odd (at least if your native language has /h/ as a phoneme), but I suppose that's pretty subjective.
I read the reverse. Mea culpa. I would consider this "preaspiration" then. I find it unlikely that there's preglottalization in BrE other than Londoner dialects
Huh? Why? Preglottalisation is near-universal in BrE, probably more so than in AmE, and in some dialects it's extremely widespread.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 11 Jan 2017 16:13

Salmoneus wrote: Huh? Why? Preglottalisation is near-universal in BrE, probably more so than in AmE, and in some dialects it's extremely widespread.
True. Just recently heard a talk about preglottalization in Manchester English.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 11 Jan 2017 17:38

Creyeditor wrote:
Salmoneus wrote: Huh? Why? Preglottalisation is near-universal in BrE, probably more so than in AmE, and in some dialects it's extremely widespread.
True. Just recently heard a talk about preglottalization in Manchester English.
I will also concur in stating that BrE is more "glottal" overall than AmE, like inter/postvocalic /t/ becomes [ʔ] not [ɾ] in most dialects.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Isfendil » 11 Jan 2017 22:20

I am trying to find a list of all latin words with geminate consonants, does anyone know where I can get one?

Barring that, does anyone know a latin word with a geminate cc followed by any back vowel?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 11 Jan 2017 23:10

Isfendil wrote:Barring that, does anyone know a latin word with a geminate cc followed by any back vowel?
accūsō ‎- I blame
accolō ‎- I dwell by
accommodō ‎- I fit something to something else
acconciliō ‎ - I advise
accumulō ‎- I add to a heap
accūrō ‎ - I take care off
accurrō ‎- I run to help
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 12 Jan 2017 00:45

Isfendil wrote:I am trying to find a list of all latin words with geminate consonants, does anyone know where I can get one?

Barring that, does anyone know a latin word with a geminate cc followed by any back vowel?
saccus.

EDIT: sorry, didn't see earlier reply.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 12 Jan 2017 10:09

Do satellite-framed and verb-framed languages correlate with head-marking vs. dependent-marking? It seems that most languages with applicatives, derivational or inflectional prefixes in general (undo, outrun, etc. in English), and verb particles (whether Northern European-style or like in many "analytic" languages) are satellite-framed and most languages with no applicatives, a ton of cases, and especially strong suffixing tendencies are verb-framed. Of course most languages are not even close to consistently head- or dependent-marking, it's mostly just these specific factors. These are also kind of obvious contributors to said framing (it's way easier and not almost stupidly redundant to say "into-run" than "running into-enter") but I think implications are sort of interesting. If head-marking really is more "unmarked" (at least for verbs, especially considering that completely unmarked verbs seem sort of rare) then Latin and Romance and Turkish are yet again not so standard.


(Honestly a lot of "universals" as well as which feature are common or uncommon cross-linguistically seem to be genetic and/or area effects anyways to me. They say "it's a small world" for a reason.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Isfendil » 12 Jan 2017 16:07

Salmoneus wrote:
Isfendil wrote:I am trying to find a list of all latin words with geminate consonants, does anyone know where I can get one?

Barring that, does anyone know a latin word with a geminate cc followed by any back vowel?
saccus.

EDIT: sorry, didn't see earlier reply.
Don't apologize, yours is the only word thus far that isn't just from ad- prefix assimilation

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 12 Jan 2017 18:23

Here are two words with <cc> in the root and two from prefixing something other than ad-.

beccus - beak
soccus - slipper

occupo - to occupy
succurro - to run beneath

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 12 Jan 2017 18:27

In Japanese is there any way to predict whether 四 is pronounced as yon or yo before counters or whether 三 is pronounced samb or samp before counters starting with h? I always assumed yon and samb were the default but I'm starting to see more and more with samp and yo.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 12 Jan 2017 20:11

All4Ɇn wrote:In Japanese is there any way to predict whether 四 is pronounced as yon or yo before counters or whether 三 is pronounced samb or samp before counters starting with h? I always assumed yon and samb were the default but I'm starting to see more and more with samp and yo.
Looking over on Wikipedia, san h- seems to become samb- by default, but san hu- (fu-) becomes sampu-.

As for yo vs. yon, though, I still haven't found a pattern, and some I've found some examples where both forms are used, e.g. yo-banme and yon-banme for "fourth" and then there are examples like yon-fun and yon-pun for "four minutes", yo-mei and yon-mei for "four people", yon-wa and yon-ba for "four birds/rabbits", and so on. My guess would be that there probably is a pattern (the use of yon over yo seems to be the default), but that the treatment of yon-h- and yon-w- might different from dialect to dialect or something like that.

I'm not sure, though. Someone might know more.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 13 Jan 2017 11:10

The default is yon-; yo- is comparatively rare, though that's somewhat obscured by the fact that it occurs with a number of common counters.

4時(間) yoji(kan) four o'clock/hours
4人 yonin four people
4年 yonen four years
4円 yoen four yen

If you can remember these four (!) cases you're pretty much set for yo- in conversation.

As for rendaku acting on h producing b or p (not just with counter words but in general), or appears to be lexical, with each morpheme consistently becoming one or the other. I looked into this before, but was ultimately unsuccessful in determining what caused otherwise identical morphemes to diverge in rendaku. For example, 編 hen becomes -pen such as in 本編 honpen but 偏 hen becomes -ben, as in 人偏 ninben.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lao Kou » 13 Jan 2017 15:27

clawgrip wrote:4人 yonin four people
4年 yonen four years
If, God forbid, you got this gemminatingly wrong, would anyone care? Bat your baby blues and call it a day.
As for rendaku acting on h producing b or p (not just with counter words but in general), or appears to be lexical, with each morpheme consistently becoming one or the other. I looked into this before, but was ultimately unsuccessful in determining what caused otherwise identical morphemes to diverge in rendaku. For example, 編 hen becomes -pen such as in 本編 honpen but 偏 hen becomes -ben, as in 人偏 ninben.
I can't remember this ever being an issue. (But, of course, I'm foreign.)
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 13 Jan 2017 16:01

if you say yonnen or yonnin you will be understood because those are not words, and yonen and yonin are the closest words to those, so people will figure it out easily enough.

It's really just a matter of pattern recognition (if you know a word like 活発 kappatsu or 連発 renpatsu then you know that 三発 is going to be sanpatsu). and rote memorization (if you just memorize that 匹 is b, not p, then you're set for that one: 三匹 sanbiki. next).

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 13 Jan 2017 21:12

clawgrip wrote:If you can remember these four (!) cases you're pretty much set for yo- in conversation.
Well that part ended up being easier than I imagined [:)] 4円 was the one that made me start questioning yo- as it was really bizarre to me to see it in an otherwise completely regular counter.
clawgrip wrote:It's really just a matter of pattern recognition (if you know a word like 活発 kappatsu or 連発 renpatsu then you know that 三発 is going to be sanpatsu). and rote memorization (if you just memorize that 匹 is b, not p, then you're set for that one: 三匹 sanbiki. next).
[:'(] Could be harder though I suppose. Interesting how regular it is. Guessing 百 is the only notable exception?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 14 Jan 2017 00:09

百 becomes b. Remember we're talking about the non-germinated form here; geminate h always becomes p.

EDIT: 4円 is pronounced as it is probably because yoen is easier and simpler to pronounce than yon'en.
Last edited by clawgrip on 14 Jan 2017 02:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lao Kou » 14 Jan 2017 01:48

Nippon. [:)]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 14 Jan 2017 17:19

@ Native speakers of English:
Is "plead" a strong verb in your 'lect?
Is it "plead, pled, pled"?
Or is it "plead, pleaded, pleaded"?
Spoiler:
I ask because I just heard a radio newscaster say that some corporation "has pleaded guilty to ..."; but that sounded unnatural to me: I would have expected "... has pled guilty to ...".


[hr][/hr]



[Totally non-serious addendum]:
clawgrip wrote:百 becomes b. Remember we're talking about the non-germinated form here; ....
So what happens after it sprouts? [:)]
[/Totally non-serious addendum]
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 14 Jan 2017 17:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by GrandPiano » 14 Jan 2017 17:22

"Pleaded" for me; I'm not sure I've ever heard "pled".
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:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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