(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 21 Aug 2019 23:59

How faithfully do mixed languages copy the grammar of the "parent" language, i.e. are the same grammar rules used or just similar grammar rules?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 22 Aug 2019 03:23

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
21 Aug 2019 17:57
So what's the deal with Rashida Tlaib's surname? It's pronounced /tə'liːb/ as if the "l" and "a" were transposed in the spelling, similar to the pronunciation of "Favre".

Knowing nothing about Arabic names or pronunciation, I have to ask: is this pronunciation an Anglicization or does it reflect the original pronunciation in Arabic? Was the spelling altered or is it an accurate transliteration of the Arabic name?
Reposting because i got bumped off .... another idea that occurred to me is that its not a typo of Talib, but just a different spelling convention for it. Wikipedia says her father moved to Nicaragua before moving to the USA, and at least in Mexico there is an established transcription for Arabic names that differs from that of English. A bit odd even so, though, if the name was originally Talib.

edit: a friend suggests that it's a variant of Tulaib.
Sorry guys, this one has the worst sting.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 22 Aug 2019 05:44

Pabappa wrote:
22 Aug 2019 03:23
Reposting because i got bumped off .... another idea that occurred to me is that its not a typo of Talib, but just a different spelling convention for it. Wikipedia says her father moved to Nicaragua before moving to the USA, and at least in Mexico there is an established transcription for Arabic names that differs from that of English. A bit odd even so, though, if the name was originally Talib.
Probably not related to that, because "Tlaib" is her ex-husband's name. Her maiden name is "Harbi".

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Davush » 22 Aug 2019 14:14

It will be adapted from a dialectal pronunciation of Tulaib طليب which in many dialects becomes /tle:b/ or similar. (With pharyngealised /t/). It is originally a diminutive of Taalib, as happens in quite a few Arabic surnames.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 23 Aug 2019 19:05

Omzinesý wrote:
21 Aug 2019 23:59
How faithfully do mixed languages copy the grammar of the "parent" language, i.e. are the same grammar rules used or just similar grammar rules?
Basically the same question I have! I also ask how faithfully they copy the phonology. I have some odd phonemes like /w_m/ and /k_w/ from one of the parent languages that stick out like a sore thumb in the mixed descendant, however Michif preserves a preaspirated series of stops, they are at least not "lone phonemes" if you understand.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 23 Aug 2019 19:23

Pronouncing Sounds (eg Rhotics) with a Partial Tongue
Spoiler:
In Diana Gabaldon’s “Dragonfly in Amber”, Hugh Munro has difficulty telling Jamie Fraser the name of the Redcoat deserter who wants to sell him the identity of the real culprit of the murder for which Jamie is wanted.
That deserter’s name is Horrocks.
The front part (I think —— about the front half or 60%?) of Munro’s tongue was removed when he was an enslaved POW in Algiers.
At first Jamie thinks he said “Hawk”. Then Munro shows Jamie a rock, and Jamie thinks he means “Horrock”. Then Munro shows Jamie two rocks, and Jamie gets it right: “Horrocks”.
————

I know about at least the following four kinds of /r/ phoneme:
Trilled
Retroflex
Bunched
Uvular

I think without the front third of one’s tongue, one could not produce the trilled nor the retroflex /r/.
But I think one could still produce the bunched and the uvular /r/ with just the rear two-thirds of the tongue.

I think with only the back half of the tongue — IOW missing the front half —— one could not articulate the bunched /r/.
But I think one could still articulate the uvular /r/ with only the back 50% of the tongue.
Spoiler:
I don’t think a mutilator could remove any of his slave’s tongue-root without risking the life of his slave; and on average most slaves have been more valuable than most other livestock.
If the master had the slave’s tongue torn out by the root, I think the slave couldn’t swallow ordinary food, and the master would incur extra effort to keep the slave alive; useless except for purposes of pure sadism.
So what about it?

Does anyone agree or disagree that a speaker with half a tongue could still pronounce retracted-tongue-root and advanced-tongue-root and uvular phones?
Does anyone agree or disagree that someone with two-thirds of a tongue could still pronounce bunched /r/ and velar phones, and perhaps recognizable palatal phones (but perhaps only imperfectly)?
Last edited by eldin raigmore on 26 Aug 2019 00:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Khemehekis » 24 Aug 2019 02:17

Ha!

That reminds me of the episode of Malcolm in the Middle wherein Reese gets a tongue ring, and discovers he can no longer pronounce the phoneme /s/.

He deliberately avoids this phoneme. When his father asks him a question to which the answer is yes, Reese first replies, "Affirmative". When his father says, "No being silly: yes or no?", Reese replies, "Not no".

When asked the time at 7:00, Reese says "nineteen o'clock military time", and his father says, "Boy, you're sharp!"
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick » 25 Aug 2019 22:13

Does anyone know if there are sources available about how Arabic would have been spoken in the Levantine (specifically the Holy Land) in the 12th century?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 26 Aug 2019 02:45

More of a metalinguistic question but, would it be seen as inappropriate if a Caucasian researcher would conduct a study to see if speakers of their heritage language avoid a certain word when speaking that language in public, in the presence of non-speakers, because the word sounds like a slur towards African-Americans in English?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 27 Aug 2019 15:18

Ælfwine wrote:
23 Aug 2019 19:05
Omzinesý wrote:
21 Aug 2019 23:59
How faithfully do mixed languages copy the grammar of the "parent" language, i.e. are the same grammar rules used or just similar grammar rules?
Basically the same question I have! I also ask how faithfully they copy the phonology. I have some odd phonemes like /w_m/ and /k_w/ from one of the parent languages that stick out like a sore thumb in the mixed descendant, however Michif preserves a preaspirated series of stops, they are at least not "lone phonemes" if you understand.
No that I think of mixed languages there aren't very many of them and the definition is incomplete.
So I think it can also be a theoretical question: how much must the language preserve of both the languages to be counted as a mixed language.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 27 Aug 2019 17:26

I've probably asked this before, but I'm ready to ask it again [:)]

What exactly is a "rhotic"? Is it a real phonetic or phonological class or is it just a "psychological" class? What makes a sound "R-like"?

Why, for example, are the uvular trill and the alveolar tap both considered "rhotics"? It doesn't seem like these sounds have all that much in common.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 28 Aug 2019 05:13

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
27 Aug 2019 17:26
I've probably asked this before, but I'm ready to ask it again [:)]

What exactly is a "rhotic"? Is it a real phonetic or phonological class or is it just a "psychological" class? What makes a sound "R-like"?

Why, for example, are the uvular trill and the alveolar tap both considered "rhotics"? It doesn't seem like these sounds have all that much in common.
There are answers. I don’t know that you’ll like them.

All liquids are either lateral liquids or rhotics.
If a language has only one liquid there’s often no phonemic point in deciding whether it’s a lateral or a rhotic or both.
But any liquid that’s not lateral is rhotic. The converse is not necessarily true.

Some have said that the class of rhotics exists just to have some class of phonemes in that spot in the sonority hierarchy.

And some (there’s probably some overlap) have pointed out that rhotics tend to raise the first and lower the second formants, and also raise the third and lower the fourth formants.

There’s also tendencies of their places and manners of articulation.
Unless a rhotic is a trill or tap or flap, it tends to be retroflex or uvular.
Unless a rhotic is retroflex or uvular, it tends to be a trill or a tap or a flap.

There’s also the fact that articulating many or most rhotics introduces an additional narrowing of the articulatory airspace in the mouth close to one end. If that’s the back end, it’s probably uvular; if it’s the front end, it’s often retroflex.
That still leaves the “bunched” rhotics unaccounted for; and one might be forgiven for wondering whether it really settles the alveolar trills.

—————

Problems left over:
* Which of the questions “what is a rhotic” and “what is a liquid” has logical priority?
* Can a class of phonemes still be a “real class” if it’s not a “natural class”?
** And if so, are rhotics such a class — real, but not natural?
* Aren’t there still more problems remaining?

—————

My brother is a physician; and has sometimes had to advise his patients that, the current state of medical science regarding some question, is : “I don’t know, and I wouldn’t trust anyone who said they do know”.

This may be a parallel situation of phonology and phonetics.
The “real experts” seem to be in doubt. The people who claim anything clear-cut seem to be underinformed.

There is some provable and detectable similarity in the sounds of “rhotics” that seem to have no similarity in their articulation.
I suspect the recommended way forward for the student, is to gather and organise all that is known, and all that is unknown, about the question, and be content to remain in the highest possible order* of confusion.
*(that is, with the most relevant true information, and the least misinformation.)
Then wait patiently for the community of investigating linguisticians to publish new data and hypotheses.

—————
Edit: in UPSID and other such databases, it appears that:
* the median number of liquids in a phonemic inventory is two
* the median number of lateral liquids in a phonemic inventory is one
* the median number of rhotics in a phonemic inventory is one

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen » 29 Aug 2019 00:11

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
27 Aug 2019 17:26
I've probably asked this before
I can't recall if you specifically have done so, but the question itself does appear to be a recurrent topic of discussion here. It even used to have its own thread; I can still find my own old post referring to it, but unfortunately, it appears the thread itself was lost in the recent purge. [:S]

Anyhow:
What exactly is a "rhotic"? Is it a real phonetic or phonological class or is it just a "psychological" class? What makes a sound "R-like"?

Why, for example, are the uvular trill and the alveolar tap both considered "rhotics"? It doesn't seem like these sounds have all that much in common.
Well, for taps and trills specifically, they do form a natural class, and indeed have a tendency to turn into each other and/or occur in free variation with each other. If a trill is pronounced very short, so that the active articulator only makes a single contact with the passive one, the result is acoustically essentially identical to the corresponding tap. And the acoustic difference between uvular and alveolar trills/taps isn't that great, either - again, it's not a coincidence that half of Europe has replaced alveolar trills with uvular ones.

Then there are the alveolar and uvular approximants [ɹ] and [ʁ̞], which are still quite similar both articulatorily and acoustically (and yet again, something that a trill or tap can easily turn into). And these can then start moving around (usually backwards towards [ɻ] and [ʕ] respectively), or turning into fricatives ([ʐ], [ʁ]) or even vowels (English provides examples of /r/ > [ə], while German and Danish have /r/ > [ɐ])... And yes, where exactly the line where something stops being a rhotic should be drawn is a difficult question, and I don't think there is a single good answer. See eldin's post above.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » 29 Aug 2019 03:38

Also, liquids often have voiceless allophones. English /l/ and /ɹ/ become unvoiced after /p t k/. Many dialects of Spanish have [tɾ̥] (voiceless tap) for /tɾ/ (the man who runs the one Spanish radio program here in Vancouver even has [ʈʂ], and he comes from Concepción, Chile). Parisian French has [ʀ̥] or [X] (voiceless uvular fricative) for /ʁ/ after (and often also before) /p t k f/.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 29 Aug 2019 04:27

Thanks for the answers. Some points I had not considered before. There may not be a clear-cut answer, but it's a bit clearer than I thought it would be [:)]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 29 Aug 2019 23:31

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
29 Aug 2019 04:27
Thanks for the answers. Some points I had not considered before. There may not be a clear-cut answer, but it's a bit clearer than I thought it would be [:)]
The Wikipedia article on rhotics seems to say most of what I tried/wanted to say, and vice-versa.
Also I think it has a link to John Cowan’s blog wherein he discusses how he introduced the term “rhotic” in 1968.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Khemehekis » 30 Aug 2019 05:53

Shemtov wrote:
26 Aug 2019 02:45
More of a metalinguistic question but, would it be seen as inappropriate if a Caucasian researcher would conduct a study to see if speakers of their heritage language avoid a certain word when speaking that language in public, in the presence of non-speakers, because the word sounds like a slur towards African-Americans in English?
You're asking about the Korean pronouns, I venture?
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 30 Aug 2019 13:41

Maybe the Mandarin word for “that”?
Or one or some other demonstratives, in Mandarin or other Chinese languages?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 30 Aug 2019 20:12

The Yiddish word for the color black, whose feminine form has been borrowed into Jewish English as a racial slur (and the use of it to mean "African-American" in Yiddish itself is controversial, and depends on the speaker. Most people I know have no trouble using it in Yiddish, but online I encountered someone who said that that use is always racist, and the proper term is the English loan "Afrikan-Amerikaner", and refused to even accept that others felt differently "It's not a dialect difference, those people are just racist and are lying about it. Period" :roll: )
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 07 Sep 2019 01:43

This might be a stupid question, but what do people think this consonant is?

https://vocaroo.com/

https://vocaroo.com/

https://vocaroo.com/

There's something clicky to it, but it seems very... fricated. There's no noticeable connection between the blade of the tongue and anything forward of the soft palate. As far as I know, this isn't a phoneme, or "sound unit", within any natural language, but I was wondering if anyone's heard of anything similar.
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