(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by qwed117 » 07 Sep 2019 03:31

The links are only to the main vocaroo site, not the specific recording
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 07 Sep 2019 17:40

qwed117 wrote:
07 Sep 2019 03:31
The links are only to the main vocaroo site, not the specific recording
Ah fudge. Whelp, never mind [:P] I wasn't planning on doing anything with it, and can't be bothered recording it again, so no matter [:)]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 14 Sep 2019 03:50

Where does the Italian word "Iddio" come from? It is a synonym of "Dio", meaning "God". Wiktionary offers no etymology. Any idea how this word came about?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 14 Sep 2019 13:15

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
14 Sep 2019 03:50
Where does the Italian word "Iddio" come from? It is a synonym of "Dio", meaning "God". Wiktionary offers no etymology. Any idea how this word came about?
Apparently it's from il Dio with some assimilation.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 14 Sep 2019 19:43

I guess I could've figured that out [xD]

It's another one of those words that I notice a lot in opera libretti. And it's used alongside Dio. It seems like it might be archaic, but I wouldn't know.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » 15 Sep 2019 06:11

It is positively archaic in modern Italian. Italian Wiktionary says it fell into disuse in 19th century.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Vlürch » 16 Sep 2019 11:59

Where did the Tibetan nominalising suffix -པ /pa/ come from? I tried to google but couldn't find anything about its origin...

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 20 Sep 2019 19:24

It seems that word order encodes which participant is the topic in all languages (?), while there must be some morphological marker for semantic roles (voice or case).
Do languages that have morphological marker for topic but code semantic roles with word order exist?

X-top V Y. 'X is Ving Y.'
X V Y-top. 'Y is being Ved by X.'

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 20 Sep 2019 22:20

Might depend what you mean. Lots of languages mark topic with particles, and I'm sure some must be cliticised, but I'm not aware of any topic-marking affixes per se.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » 21 Sep 2019 02:15

Omzinesý wrote:
20 Sep 2019 19:24
It seems that word order encodes which participant is the topic in all languages (?), while there must be some morphological marker for semantic roles (voice or case).
Do languages that have morphological marker for topic but code semantic roles with word order exist?

X-top V Y. 'X is Ving Y.'
X V Y-top. 'Y is being Ved by X.'
Oh, that looks fun.

I don't know of any natlang like that, but I'd like to mention some languages do have particles or adpositions to indicate topics. English has "now", "regarding", and "as for". Classical Chinese has 夫 (Mandarin fú, Cantonese fu4), 也 (M: yě, C: yaa5) and 者 (M: zhě, C: je2). "Now Tibetan, that was a nightmare to learn to spell."

It is also common for languages to use resumptive pronouns. Very commonly seen in French: les tomates, je te les avais déjà apportées, bien que j'avais oublié d'acheter de la laittue en même temps 'as for the tomatoes, I had already brought them for you, even though I had forgotten to buy some lettuce at the same time'.

It's not always or usually done purely with word order.
Last edited by Ser on 21 Sep 2019 02:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by sangi39 » 21 Sep 2019 02:37

So, I work for a company that deals with gift cards in a fashion, and I work in the fraud section. Best part of the job for me, going "oo, message in Turkish", or "oh my god, finally, a message in Estonian". Most of the messages we get are in English, unsurprisingly with us being in the UK, and actually quite surprisingly a fair few in Welsh (beyond the set phrases of "penblwydd hapus" and "nadolig llawen" and the like).

Now, cool thing I saw today, in a message in Finnish, was "hyvää syntymäpäivää, dyyd", and I really, really want that to be a Finnish rendering of the stereotypical California surfer "dude".

I can't find anything through Google (any attempt I make at a search always tries to correct to Welsh "dydd", meaning "day"), but is this a thing in Finnish?
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Khemehekis » 21 Sep 2019 03:28

sangi39 wrote:
21 Sep 2019 02:37
I can't find anything through Google (any attempt I make at a search always tries to correct to Welsh "dydd", meaning "day"), but is this a thing in Finnish?
In The Language Instinct, Steven Pinker says that to people living through the Great Vowel Shift, it must have sounded "like that strange surfer dialect" in which "dude" sounds something like [dɪːuːd].

Native Finnish words don't begin with [d], so "dyyd" is almost certainly something borrowed -- I'd say it's quite likely "dude".
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen » 21 Sep 2019 12:08

sangi39 wrote:
21 Sep 2019 02:37
Now, cool thing I saw today, in a message in Finnish, was "hyvää syntymäpäivää, dyyd", and I really, really want that to be a Finnish rendering of the stereotypical California surfer "dude".

I can't find anything through Google (any attempt I make at a search always tries to correct to Welsh "dydd", meaning "day"), but is this a thing in Finnish?
I wouldn't specifically associate it with California, but yes, it's clearly a rendering of "dude". As for being a thing... I guess? I wouldn't say "dyyd" itself exists as an established loanword in Finnish, but this kind of code switching / ad hoc borrowings from English are certainly a thing among the kind of younger Finnish speakers who've grown up inundated in American pop culture.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 23 Sep 2019 12:36

In French some words with the circumflex added them not due to any etymological reasoning but simply because the accent gives the words a royal look due to the accent's similarity to a crown. This is most commonly seen in the words trône and suprême.

My question is, are there any other cases of the spelling of a word in a phonographic system being based on a visual element of a letter/accent/etc. ?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 23 Sep 2019 13:19

All4Ɇn wrote:
23 Sep 2019 12:36
In French some words with the circumflex added them not due to any etymological reasoning but simply because the accent gives the words a royal look due to the accent's similarity to a crown. This is most commonly seen in the words trône and suprême.

My question is, are there any other cases of the spelling of a word in a phonographic system being based on a visual element of a letter/accent/etc. ?
Hm, I don't think that's true. The circumflex accent marks, or rather marked as it's mostly gone nowadays, phonemic vowel length (as a consequence it's used either etymologically or to disambiguate homophones). It usually arises through compensatory lengthening when /s/ was lost or through vowel contraction. In the case of trône and suprême it seems to be borrowed from a contemporary traditional pronunciation of Latin.

By that logic I'd expect the cǎrǒn, or rather ǎltêrnǎtîng cǎrôns ǎnd cîrcǔmflêxěs, to be used. I don't know of an actual example of what you proposed (in the Latin alphabet, Egyptian Hieroglyphics are full of it*), but the idea is interesting.

*Hieroglyphics are usually written in the direction of reading, but characters indicating royalty or divinity may exceptionally be written at the beginning of the word. And later, hellenistic era Hieroglyphics are full of graphic puns.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Reyzadren » 23 Sep 2019 13:42

All4Ɇn wrote:
23 Sep 2019 12:36
In French some words with the circumflex added them not due to any etymological reasoning but simply because the accent gives the words a royal look due to the accent's similarity to a crown. This is most commonly seen in the words trône and suprême.

My question is, are there any other cases of the spelling of a word in a phonographic system being based on a visual element of a letter/accent/etc. ?
In that other natlang that I speak, with its somewhat irregular spelling system, there are a group of spelling combinations known as polar vowels, which are spelt in a somewhat similar way and are not pronounced as what they appear as initially.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 23 Sep 2019 17:44

Ser wrote:
21 Sep 2019 02:15
Omzinesý wrote:
20 Sep 2019 19:24
It seems that word order encodes which participant is the topic in all languages (?), while there must be some morphological marker for semantic roles (voice or case).
Do languages that have morphological marker for topic but code semantic roles with word order exist?

X-top V Y. 'X is Ving Y.'
X V Y-top. 'Y is being Ved by X.'
Oh, that looks fun.

I don't know of any natlang like that, but I'd like to mention some languages do have particles or adpositions to indicate topics. English has "now", "regarding", and "as for". Classical Chinese has 夫 (Mandarin fú, Cantonese fu4), 也 (M: yě, C: yaa5) and 者 (M: zhě, C: je2). "Now Tibetan, that was a nightmare to learn to spell."

It is also common for languages to use resumptive pronouns. Very commonly seen in French: les tomates, je te les avais déjà apportées, bien que j'avais oublié d'acheter de la laittue en même temps 'as for the tomatoes, I had already brought them for you, even though I had forgotten to buy some lettuce at the same time'.

It's not always or usually done purely with word order.
Yes, of course there are topic particles and affixes, and even more for focus.
I just mean that word order is never used to code purely semantic roles.

French syntax is a mess, hot to say I would know French. It uses very complex cleft clauses to allow information structure be coded by word order in a language with a very strict word order.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Vlürch » 26 Sep 2019 03:51

Does 小陽 mean "moon" in either Chinese or Japanese? I mean, it'd complement 太陽 and "little sun" seems like it could mean "moon"? Maybe I'm an idiot for thinking that, though... I tried to google but couldn't really find anything at all about what it actually means, only that it's a Japanese feminine given name. If it can't mean "moon" in either language, I might have to make a conlang that uses Chinese characters just so I can include it.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » 26 Sep 2019 06:33

Vlürch wrote:
26 Sep 2019 03:51
Does 小陽 mean "moon" in either Chinese or Japanese? I mean, it'd complement 太陽 and "little sun" seems like it could mean "moon"? Maybe I'm an idiot for thinking that, though... I tried to google but couldn't really find anything at all about what it actually means, only that it's a Japanese feminine given name. If it can't mean "moon" in either language, I might have to make a conlang that uses Chinese characters just so I can include it.
陽 (Mandarin: yáng, Cantonese: yeung4) is the side of a mountain that receives sunlight, and by extension it's the Sun, heat, light and the male principle. 小陽 (M: xiǎoyáng, C: siu2yeung4) would just mean 'little Sun' if it existed.

The counterpart of 太陽 (M: tàiyáng, C: taai3yeung4) would be 太陰 (M: tàiyīn, C: taai3yam1), using 陰 (M: yīn, C: yam1), the side of a mountain with shade that stands for the Moon, cold, darkness and the female principle. This word does exist and it means "moon", but is a word closely associated with Taoism. It isn't used in regular language.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Vlürch » 26 Sep 2019 15:02

Ser wrote:
26 Sep 2019 06:33
陽 (Mandarin: yáng, Cantonese: yeung4) is the side of a mountain that receives sunlight, and by extension it's the Sun, heat, light and the male principle.
Ah, that mountain thing is really interesting, I had no idea. I knew it's the yang of yin and yang, of course, though, but somehow I never even thought to think about or look up its etymology and whether it was related to the "sun" meaning; it's kinda obvious in hindsight that they're etymologically connected since they even use the same character, but I didn't know that 陰 can mean "moon" so it just never occurred to me. I also tend to not make etymological connections even in Finnish, or any language, unless it's for pseudoscientific language comparison...

When was it extended to mean the sun itself? Wiktionary seems to imply that the original meaning was simply something to do with light, but also mentions "sun shining on a hill" in regards to its graphical origin. I didn't know that just 昜 was a thing, but if Wiktionary is to be trusted and I'm not misunderstanding anything from it or your post, presumably the addition of the hill radical was to narrow the meaning down? And then it was later re-broadened while 昜 became less common? Or something like that?
Ser wrote:
26 Sep 2019 06:33
小陽 (M: xiǎoyáng, C: siu2yeung4) would just mean 'little Sun' if it existed.
Oh. Would it still make sense for conlanging purposes to have it mean "moon" or would that be absolutely moronic. It'd be absolutely moronic, wouldn't it? Or what about some kind of weather/time/whatever-related distinction, like meaning the sun when it's seen only barely from behind clouds or before noon or something?
Ser wrote:
26 Sep 2019 06:33
The counterpart of 太陽 (M: tàiyáng, C: taai3yeung4) would be 太陰 (M: tàiyīn, C: taai3yam1), using 陰 (M: yīn, C: yam1), the side of a mountain with shade that stands for the Moon, cold, darkness and the female principle. This word does exist and it means "moon", but is a word closely associated with Taoism. It isn't used in regular language.
Cool, and it even exists in Japanese! [:O] So, did it originate in Taoism, or has it just become associated with it over time?

Anyway, thanks!

EDIT: What about *小陰? Everything on Google is genitals.

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