(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguistCat » 11 Jun 2019 01:32

Thanks everyone. I thought that might be the case but I was hoping something else could work. I'll just have to go and see where I can analogize things.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 18 Jun 2019 00:22

Is there a list of Germanic words of unknown origin?

I'm planning a European isolate language.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 18 Jun 2019 03:27

Probably, but scholars differ widely on what can and cannot be explained as native derivation. Germanic is one of the later-attested branches, after all, and one of the more rapidly changing ones too. For example , some see Germanic words with geminate consonants as evidence for borrowing from a substrate, while others see it as evidence for Kluge's law.

C.f. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germani ... hypothesis and https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kluge%27s_law .
Sorry guys, this one has the worst sting.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 19 Jun 2019 16:28

I decided this was more a “Linguistics” post than a “Conlangs” post.

Are modifiers that modify modifiers, pretty much the same word-class as intensifiers?

Do any natlangs distinguish two or more distributional word-classes of “adverbs”?
For instance, perhaps:
* ad-sentential and/or ad-clausal and/or ad-verbal “adverbs”, versus
* ad-modifier (ad-adjectival and/or ad-adverbal) adverbs?

——————————
Spoiler:
In my conlang Arpien******,
* ad-clausal adverbs (that modify clauses),
* ad-adverbal adverbs (that modify ad-clausal adverbs),
* ad-verbal adverbs (that modify univalent verbs**),
* ad-complementizer adverbs (that modify complementizers***), and
* ad-adjectival adverbs (that modify adjectives),
are five different and separate word-classes.
Only the ad-clausal adverbs are a large, open word-class; the other four are each small, closed word-classes.

** In Arpien, univalent verbs and bivalent verbs and trivalent verbs are three separate and distinct lexical categories. Univalent and bivalent verbs are large open classes*****; trivalent verbs are a small closed class. ****

*** In Arpien, complementizers are a large open class, which might be phrasal instead of just one word. ****

**** See https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Arpien if you want to.

***** Actually there are two large open classes of bivalent verb-phrase. One takes two nouns as arguments; the other takes a noun and a clause as arguments.

***** The names of word-classes in any grammar of any natlang, don’t necessarily correspond perfectly with their meanings in my still-provisional grammar of Arpien.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 20 Jun 2019 15:47

eldin raigmore wrote:
19 Jun 2019 16:28
I decided this was more a “Linguistics” post than a “Conlangs” post.

Are modifiers that modify modifiers, pretty much the same word-class as intensifiers?

Do any natlangs distinguish two or more distributional word-classes of “adverbs”?
For instance, perhaps:
* ad-sentential and/or ad-clausal and/or ad-verbal “adverbs”, versus
* ad-modifier (ad-adjectival and/or ad-adverbal) adverbs?

——————————
Spoiler:
In my conlang Arpien******,
* ad-clausal adverbs (that modify clauses),
* ad-adverbal adverbs (that modify ad-clausal adverbs),
* ad-verbal adverbs (that modify univalent verbs**),
* ad-complementizer adverbs (that modify complementizers***), and
* ad-adjectival adverbs (that modify adjectives),
are five different and separate word-classes.
Only the ad-clausal adverbs are a large, open word-class; the other four are each small, closed word-classes.

** In Arpien, univalent verbs and bivalent verbs and trivalent verbs are three separate and distinct lexical categories. Univalent and bivalent verbs are large open classes*****; trivalent verbs are a small closed class. ****

*** In Arpien, complementizers are a large open class, which might be phrasal instead of just one word. ****

**** See https://conlang.fandom.com/wiki/Arpien if you want to.

***** Actually there are two large open classes of bivalent verb-phrase. One takes two nouns as arguments; the other takes a noun and a clause as arguments.

***** The names of word-classes in any grammar of any natlang, don’t necessarily correspond perfectly with their meanings in my still-provisional grammar of Arpien.
I don't know of any natlang that distinguishes them morphologically between them, but (i) there are linguists that distinguish them and there are languages where ad-sentential adverbs are an open class but ad-adjectival adverbs are a closed class. Btw I am pretty sure that some people have argued for a distinction between ad-verb-phrase-al adverbs and ad-sentential adverbs. This is mostly a semantic distinction (e.g. manner adverbs modify events, attitude adverbs modify the attitude of the speaker towards the utterance) but in some languages these are also morphosyntactically differentiated.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 20 Jun 2019 22:02

Creyeditor wrote:
20 Jun 2019 15:47
I don't know of any natlang that distinguishes them morphologically between them, but (i) there are linguists that distinguish them and there are languages where ad-sentential adverbs are an open class but ad-adjectival adverbs are a closed class. Btw I am pretty sure that some people have argued for a distinction between ad-verb-phrase-al adverbs and ad-sentential adverbs. This is mostly a semantic distinction (e.g. manner adverbs modify events, attitude adverbs modify the attitude of the speaker towards the utterance) but in some languages these are also morphosyntactically differentiated.
That’s good to know! Thank you!
Any example languages, or example linguists?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 24 Jun 2019 18:35

Does anyone know a book or a paper which discusses the origin of Old French weak preterites in -ui (like valui, valus, valut...)? I'm writing a paper for my master's degree and I've been unable to find anything detailed (and the topic is fiendishly complicated [D;]).
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 24 Jun 2019 20:02

eldin raigmore wrote:
20 Jun 2019 22:02
Creyeditor wrote:
20 Jun 2019 15:47
I don't know of any natlang that distinguishes them morphologically between them, but (i) there are linguists that distinguish them and there are languages where ad-sentential adverbs are an open class but ad-adjectival adverbs are a closed class. Btw I am pretty sure that some people have argued for a distinction between ad-verb-phrase-al adverbs and ad-sentential adverbs. This is mostly a semantic distinction (e.g. manner adverbs modify events, attitude adverbs modify the attitude of the speaker towards the utterance) but in some languages these are also morphosyntactically differentiated.
That’s good to know! Thank you!
Any example languages, or example linguists?
Just give me a few days. If I forget, just PM me.
I found natlang yesterday that reduplicates ad-sentential adverbs but not ad-adjectival adverbs. Then I forgot to post it here and forgot the language. Mee (aka Ekagi, Ekari) does it too, but I don't think there is anything published on that yet. This paper (pdf) seems to give a good overview about the ad-verbial versus ad-sentential adverb distinction in generative grammar. This was mostly about English, but French and Italian have also figured prominently in the discussion.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 25 Jun 2019 22:26

Some Swedish dialects apparently have an alveolar approximant or fricative instead of /r/.
What dialects are they?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Jun 2019 03:59

Omzinesý wrote:
25 Jun 2019 22:26
Some Swedish dialects apparently have an alveolar approximant or fricative instead of /r/.
What dialects are they?
Pre-classical Latin (e.g. honosius instead of honorius), for one. But this is the first time I’ve ever thought if it as a Swedish dialect.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 26 Jun 2019 16:37

Omzinesý wrote:
25 Jun 2019 22:26
Some Swedish dialects apparently have an alveolar approximant or fricative instead of /r/.
What dialects are they?
And i mean the non-sibilant fricative, more or less similar to English <r>

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 26 Jun 2019 17:17

Has anyone else ever noticed how, when a person reaches the age of, oh, let’s say “67” just to pick a random number, they’ll know every word of the sentence they’re about to say when they start saying it, but by the time they get to the end of the sentence they can no longer quite recall the last word?

Like, I they’ll start to say “I’m going to the bathroom”, but end up saying “I’m going to the ... uh ...”?

Is there a name for that phenomenon?
What’s the explanation, how common is it, and what age does it start?

Asking for a friend.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by elemtilas » 27 Jun 2019 20:50

eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Jun 2019 17:17
Has anyone else ever noticed how, when a person reaches the age of, oh, let’s say “67” just to pick a random number, they’ll know every word of the sentence they’re about to say when they start saying it, but by the time they get to the end of the sentence they can no longer quite recall the last word?

Like, I they’ll start to say “I’m going to the bathroom”, but end up saying “I’m going to the ... uh ...”?

Is there a name for that phenomenon?
What’s the explanation, how common is it, and what age does it start?

Asking for a friend.
A ... "friend" ... is it?

Did you just turn, oh, say, "67" recently??

[}:D]

I've generally heard the phenomenon called "having a senior moment" (not so nice, really) or "brain fart" (definitely not quite so nice).

:yout: Senior Moment

The term and the "humour" surrounding it is an example of ageism.

The funny thing is, it's not really an age thing. I've seen young kids, tweens, teens, and young adults alike do this same thing. I believe, apart from normal changes in brain chemistry, architecture and so forth over the human lifespan, people of all ages are simply prone to this tip-of-the-tongue loss-for-wordism.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 28 Jun 2019 06:42

elemtilas wrote:
27 Jun 2019 20:50
Did you just turn, oh, say, "67" recently??
As sheer coincidence would have it, yes! (I doubt I’d have noticed the coincidence if you hadn’t mentioned it!)
I've generally heard the phenomenon called "having a senior moment" (not so nice, really) or "brain fart" (definitely not quite so nice).
I’m sure “cerebral flatulence”, or maybe “neural flatus”, is the more polite term, now that I think about it; at least, it sounds more technical.
I found that hilarious 🤣!
The term and the "humour" surrounding it is an example of ageism.
The funny thing is, it's not really an age thing. I've seen young kids, tweens, teens, and young adults alike do this same thing. I believe, apart from normal changes in brain chemistry, architecture and so forth over the human lifespan, people of all ages are simply prone to this tip-of-the-tongue loss-for- ... uh ...
I think I started it around eight-ish*, when I was living in a house with a family friend who was recovering from a stroke.
My serious hypothesis (but it’s still just a guess!) is that it has to do with leaving the sentence cued up on autopilot once it’s been composed, and allowing one’s attention to focus (prematurely, as it turns out) on whatever comes next.
For all I know, that also explains why cats can’t remember why it was so damn important to get you to open the door.

*(that’s 8-ish, not 18-ish nor 80-ish. Third grade or so.)

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 28 Jun 2019 23:29

Zekoslav wrote:
24 Jun 2019 18:35
Does anyone know a book or a paper which discusses the origin of Old French weak preterites in -ui (like valui, valus, valut...)? I'm writing a paper for my master's degree and I've been unable to find anything detailed (and the topic is fiendishly complicated [D;]).
Hmm, you never got answer to this. I don't know of a paper on this topic, but I'd always assumed it was a case of analogy based on the past participle. Is it more complicated than that? [O.O]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 29 Jun 2019 11:18

Dormouse559 wrote:
28 Jun 2019 23:29
Zekoslav wrote:
24 Jun 2019 18:35
Does anyone know a book or a paper which discusses the origin of Old French weak preterites in -ui (like valui, valus, valut...)? I'm writing a paper for my master's degree and I've been unable to find anything detailed (and the topic is fiendishly complicated [D;]).
Hmm, you never got answer to this. I don't know of a paper on this topic, but I'd always assumed it was a case of analogy based on the past participle. Is it more complicated than that? [O.O]
Apparently, it's unlikely that a novel inflectional class would be created ex nihilo by analogy with other inflectional classes. For example, when in Vulgar Latin perfects and past participles of the 2nd and 3rd conjugations were regularized so as to be stressed on the suffix, like in the 1st and 4th conjugations (-āvī, -ātum and -īvī, -ītum), the ideal solution would have been the symmetrical -ēvī and -ētum: thematic vowel + -vī, -tum. But only one rather infrequent verb, implēre 'to fill' could provide a model for such endings, and so Vulgar Latin rather generalized the more frequent -didī (from vēndere, vēndidī) and -ūtum (from battuere, battūtum) even if they were'nt symmetrical (thence French je vendis, vendu and je battis, battu).

So, weak preterits in -ui being built directly from the past participle should be the last option, once all of the more likely hypotheses have been shown to be impossible. Right now I think these verbs copied the conjugation of 'to be' (an influence of a frequent irregular verb on regular verbs is actually pretty common) in order for their preterites to be more distinct from the present. But the details are really hard to reconstruct since the inflectional class is unique to French and it appears fully formed in the earliest texts. Something interesting happened in the Dark Ages and I'd like to find out what [:D]
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 30 Jun 2019 10:44

Zekoslav wrote:
29 Jun 2019 11:18
Apparently, it's unlikely that a novel inflectional class would be created ex nihilo by analogy with other inflectional classes.
Well, I don't think that's what I was proposing. Several, though not all, verbs that ended up with a past participle from -ūtum also ended up with a passé composé based on -u-, which at the very least, I'd say isn't a coincidence. A few of those verbs (e.g. debeo, valeo) already had preterites with -u- in Latin, albeit with a different stress pattern.

Meanwhile, analogy has worked in the opposite direction, with a verb's preterite influencing its past participle, which is why the past participle of mettre is mis, mise, and not *mes, messe.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 30 Jun 2019 13:54

Dormouse559 wrote:
30 Jun 2019 10:44
Zekoslav wrote:
29 Jun 2019 11:18
Apparently, it's unlikely that a novel inflectional class would be created ex nihilo by analogy with other inflectional classes.
Well, I don't think that's what I was proposing. Several, though not all, verbs that ended up with a past participle from -ūtum also ended up with a passé composé based on -u-, which at the very least, I'd say isn't a coincidence. A few of those verbs (e.g. debeo, valeo) already had preterites with -u- in Latin, albeit with a different stress pattern.

Meanwhile, analogy has worked in the opposite direction, with a verb's preterite influencing its past participle, which is why the past participle of mettre is mis, mise, and not *mes, messe.
I apologize for this misunderstanding. When you asked if it was more complicated than that, I assumed you were referring to the simplest but not very likely hypothesis about which I've recently read a paper thoroughly debunking it (I've written about it, so it was the first thing that came to my mind) [:D].

The fact that these verbs all have a past participle in -ūtum is certainly crucial, but the details of how the corresponding passé simple endings were created are debated and I'd like to learn more about it.

Old French actually had two different types of passé simple on -ui: one keeps the original Latin stress pattern and becomes horribly irregular (habuī, habuit > oi, ot but habuistī > eus /əˈys/; debuī, debuit > dui, dut but debuistī > deus /dəˈys/), and the other has a stress pattern with all forms being stressed on the ending (valui, valus, valut). Some kind of analogy was involved to regularize stress, and I'm trying to find a plausible solution.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 04 Jul 2019 23:09

So what's the deal with Italian apocope? Is there any specific rule to when one would delete the final vowel? I listen to a lot of opera and follow along with the Italian libretti, and I would notice final vowel deletion but could never discern any patterns. It seems so random. Why is it "Castiglione del Lago" but "Castiglion del Bosco"? Is there any rhyme or reason to it?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Nortaneous » 12 Jul 2019 21:24

eldin raigmore wrote:
26 Jun 2019 17:17
Has anyone else ever noticed how, when a person reaches the age of, oh, let’s say “67” just to pick a random number, they’ll know every word of the sentence they’re about to say when they start saying it, but by the time they get to the end of the sentence they can no longer quite recall the last word?

Like, I they’ll start to say “I’m going to the bathroom”, but end up saying “I’m going to the ... uh ...”?

Is there a name for that phenomenon?
What’s the explanation, how common is it, and what age does it start?

Asking for a friend.
More common for me is landing on the wrong word (one with the same initial consonant and a similar number of letters) - this is especially bad with modafinil and melatonin, since they both start with M and are nine letters long, but they do almost exactly opposite things.

That doesn't even depend on position in the sentence - I said earlier today that the blueberry bushes weren't doing well, only to be reminded that we don't have any. What we do have is blackberry bushes.

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