(L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 22 Dec 2018 21:55

sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 21:21
If there is a Romance origin, I get the feeling it might end in -ct-some suffix, or possibly -ex. The words the Wiktionary a) has entries for, and b) provides etymologies for, which chametg also rhymes are retg, dretg, fretg, stretg, which come from rex, directus, frucuts, and strictus respectively, but there's also setg which apparently derives from siccus.

So I would have said something like *camVctus, *camVx, or *camVccus, but damned if I can find an entry at the moment that would fit that at all.
My thoughts exactly. Perhaps chametg's etymon was a Late Latin borrowing from a local substrate. Wiktionary says chamois (Late Latin camox [!]) ultimately comes from a Gaulish word and that that word possibly comes from Rhaetic or Old Ligurian.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 23 Dec 2018 02:31

Trask's Basque dictionary says tximista is native, but lists it under expressive vocabulary, so there's no internal etymology. The /m/ is a clue that it's not a normal Basque word, at any rate. I still think a loan from Basque into Romansch is possible, but one would think there's also be attestation in French, Spanish, etc.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by spanick » 23 Dec 2018 15:48

Dormouse559 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 21:55
sangi39 wrote:
22 Dec 2018 21:21
If there is a Romance origin, I get the feeling it might end in -ct-some suffix, or possibly -ex. The words the Wiktionary a) has entries for, and b) provides etymologies for, which chametg also rhymes are retg, dretg, fretg, stretg, which come from rex, directus, frucuts, and strictus respectively, but there's also setg which apparently derives from siccus.

So I would have said something like *camVctus, *camVx, or *camVccus, but damned if I can find an entry at the moment that would fit that at all.
My thoughts exactly. Perhaps chametg's etymon was a Late Latin borrowing from a local substrate. Wiktionary says chamois (Late Latin camox [!]) ultimately comes from a Gaulish word and that that word possibly comes from Rhaetic or Old Ligurian.
Yeah, this all sounds right to me too. Its a bummer that its origin isn't more easily found.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 30 Dec 2018 04:33

What is the origin of writing the schwa as an e in French and German? In both languages (especially German) it seems a lot if not most words the sound comes from were originally pronounced with an a. It seems strange to switch the spelling to -e considering how much closer /a/ is than /e/ to the sound.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 30 Dec 2018 07:52

I haven't studied this feature myself, so I don't know the definite answer to your question, but in French, the most common words containing /ə/, such as determiners and pronouns, get it from sounds other than /a/ (e.g. le < illum, je < egō). That could have influenced things.

Is /a/ much more similar to /ə/ than /e/ is? To me, they seem about the same amount of different.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Imralu » 30 Dec 2018 18:18

All4Ɇn wrote:
30 Dec 2018 04:33
What is the origin of writing the schwa as an e in French and German? In both languages (especially German) it seems a lot if not most words the sound comes from were originally pronounced with an a. It seems strange to switch the spelling to -e considering how much closer /a/ is than /e/ to the sound.
You seem to be using <Ɇ> to represent a schwa in your username ...
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by All4Ɇn » 31 Dec 2018 02:02

Imralu wrote:
30 Dec 2018 18:18
You seem to be using <Ɇ> to represent a schwa in your username ...
It's actually representing /ɑ̃/ [;)]

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Porphyrogenitos » 31 Dec 2018 08:40

In French at least, perhaps it was due to the merger with the paragogic prop vowel, which IIRC actually was originally /e/?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 31 Dec 2018 11:23

In the oldest Western South Slavic documents written in the Latin alphabet (based on Italian and Old High German), schwa is represented variably as <e> or <i>, while <a> is never used. I'm not sure how this relates to the eventual decision to use <e> in most European languages - maybe schwa really was felt to be closer to /i/ or /e/ than to /a/.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Xonen » 31 Dec 2018 13:25

Dormouse559 wrote:
30 Dec 2018 07:52
Is /a/ much more similar to /ə/ than /e/ is?
From what I can tell: not really, no. But it depends.

Pure [ə] should be somewhere between [ɤ], [ʌ] and [œ] on this chart:

Image

So about equally distant from [a] and [e]... but noticeably closer to [ɛ], which might explain the orthographic <e>.

Then again, it should also be noted that orthographic <a> is not always [a], nor is the phonological schwa always pure phonetic [ə]. In English especially, orthographic <a> in words like father can be a somewhat centralized /ɑ/, while word-final schwa can approach [ɐ] (and of course, it's usually written <a>), so I can understand how an English speaker could come to associate the schwa with <a>. But even in English, the schwa is highly variable, and French and German schwa are not the same as English schwa.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by k1234567890y » 12 Jan 2019 20:13

how common is irregular numerals(i.e. numerals whose forms can't be simply deduced from the combination of smaller numbers, like English elevel, twelve, thirteen-nineteen, twenty, etc.) in natlangs? they seem to be pretty common in natlangs?
...

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 15 Jan 2019 21:44

/j/ between a consonant and a vowel often make the consonant become nalsaisedpalatalised or affricated.
Does /w/ in the same position cause consonant changes in some language? And what are the results?
Last edited by Omzinesý on 16 Jan 2019 19:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by shimobaatar » 15 Jan 2019 22:42

Omzinesý wrote:
15 Jan 2019 21:44
/j/ between a consonant and a vowel often make the consonant become nalsaised or affricated.
In what language does /j/ trigger nasalization?

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 15 Jan 2019 23:06

k1234567890y wrote:
12 Jan 2019 20:13
how common is irregular numerals(i.e. numerals whose forms can't be simply deduced from the combination of smaller numbers, like English elevel, twelve, thirteen-nineteen, twenty, etc.) in natlangs? they seem to be pretty common in natlangs?
I believe it is in fact quite common in natlangs.

The second “decade” —— the numerals between the base and twice the base —— are often different.
Less often, but still sometimes (e.g. in obsolete English), the numerals between (base-1)*base and base^2, (see**), also are different.
The first one or two numbers after a “decade” (a multiple of the base), and/or the last one or two numbers before a “decade”, also are often different.

Irregularities sometimes occur as relics of a change in base; for instance, from vigesimal to decimal.

**(BTW the smallest superbase might not be the square of the base. WALS.info has several examples of languages with base twenty whose smallest superbase is one hundred , or in a few cases two hundred, instead of four hundred. If that’s the case, it’s the last “decade” before the smallest superbase, that might be different.)

—————

Does that help? I only said I think what you think; I wasn’t able to provide much evidence.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ser » 16 Jan 2019 00:01

And then there's the languages of India, where the numbers from 1 to 99 are so irregular you basically have to memorize them all one by one.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 16 Jan 2019 18:18

shimobaatar wrote:
15 Jan 2019 22:42
Omzinesý wrote:
15 Jan 2019 21:44
/j/ between a consonant and a vowel often make the consonant become nalsaised or affricated.
In what language does /j/ trigger nasalization?
Lol

I have used wrong terms, I see.

/j/ between a consonant and a vowel often make the consonant become palatalized or affricated.
Does /w/ in the same position cause consonant changes in some language? And what are the results?

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Post by shimobaatar » 16 Jan 2019 19:24

Oh, I probably should have guessed that.

In any case, /w/ could cause labialization.

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Post by Omzinesý » 16 Jan 2019 21:10

shimobaatar wrote:
16 Jan 2019 19:24
Oh, I probably should have guessed that.

In any case, /w/ could cause labialization.
And what could it end up to?
My quick look at Index Diachronica, only gave some labialized affricates as starting points.

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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Zekoslav » 16 Jan 2019 21:13

PIE. *tw > Ancient Greek /s/, German /tw/ (post-High-German-consonant shift, e.g. dwarf ~ Zwerg) > /tsw/ make it look like it can cause assibilation.
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Re: (L&N) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by eldin raigmore » 17 Jan 2019 16:56

k1234567890y wrote:
12 Jan 2019 20:13
how common is irregular numerals(i.e. numerals whose forms can't be simply deduced from the combination of smaller numbers, like English elevel, twelve, thirteen-nineteen, twenty, etc.) in natlangs? they seem to be pretty common in natlangs?
Oh, I almost forgot!
A multiple of the base, plus or minus half the base, is also often different, when the base is even (or so it seems to me).
Or, when the base is odd but divisible by three, a multiple of the base, plus or minus a third of the base, might be different.

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