Reflexives

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Click » 22 Aug 2014 10:48

:con: Azatri

Azatri has dedicated reflexive suffixes for every subject person.
  • Lınàrı.
    lınàr·ı
    wash·1SG
    I wash.
  • Lınàraı.
    lınàr·aı
    wash·REFL1SG
    I wash myself.
  • Lınàr.
    lınàr·Ø
    wash·3SG
    He washes.
  • Lınàras.
    lınàr·as
    wash·REFL3SG
    He washes himself.
These would be lìnareı, lìnaresı, lındré and lındré again in the irrealis mood.
Last edited by Click on 02 Sep 2014 23:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Dormouse559 » 22 Aug 2014 20:23

Thakowsaizmu wrote: :tan: Kiswahili
Ninaosha kitu. Ninajinawa. Anaosha kitu. Anajinawa.
/ni.nɑ.'ɔ.ʃɑ 'ki.tu/ /ni.nɑ.ʄi.'nɑ.wɑ/ /ɑ.nɑ.'ɔ.ʃɑ ki.tu/ /ɑ.nɑ.ʄi.'nɑ.wɑ/

ni-na-osha kitu. ni-na-ji-nawa. a-na-osha kitu. a-na-ji-nawa.
1ps-PRES-wash something. 1ps-PRES-REFL-wash_body. 3ps-PRES-wash something. 3ps-PRES-REFL-wash_body
Could you explain more about the different verbs here? Is nawa used for washing any body, or is it purely reflexive? Could osha ever be reflexive?

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Thakowsaizmu » 22 Aug 2014 20:50

Dormouse559 wrote:
Thakowsaizmu wrote: :tan: Kiswahili
Ninaosha kitu. Ninajinawa. Anaosha kitu. Anajinawa.
/ni.nɑ.'ɔ.ʃɑ 'ki.tu/ /ni.nɑ.ʄi.'nɑ.wɑ/ /ɑ.nɑ.'ɔ.ʃɑ ki.tu/ /ɑ.nɑ.ʄi.'nɑ.wɑ/

ni-na-osha kitu. ni-na-ji-nawa. a-na-osha kitu. a-na-ji-nawa.
1ps-PRES-wash something. 1ps-PRES-REFL-wash_body. 3ps-PRES-wash something. 3ps-PRES-REFL-wash_body
Could you explain more about the different verbs here? Is nawa used for washing any body, or is it purely reflexive? Could osha ever be reflexive?
Kunawa means "to wash" as in a body part, person or self. So ananawa mikono "She is washing her hands" (a-na-nawa mi-kono 3ps-PRES-wash CL4-hand). Kuosha means "to wash something / an object". So I guess you could say something like vitabu vinajiosha "the books are washing themselves" (vi-tabu vi-na-ji-osha CL8-book CL8-PRES-REFL-wash), but I think those would have to be impressive or magical books [:P]

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Dormouse559 » 22 Aug 2014 21:08

Oh, okay, that's cool. I never imagined using more than one verb, but it seems quite intuitive when you think about it. You might be seeing that split in a conlang of mine soon. [:P]

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Dormouse559 » 27 Aug 2014 04:05

To detransitivize a verb, this conlang puts it in the antipassive voice. For reflexives, it uses a combination of the normal pronoun clitic followed by -qu, which walks the line between a clitic and a suffix.

I wash. I wash myself. He washes. He washes himself.

Huttâli haw. Şîmamuqu haw. Huttâli duwa. Şîmalaqu duwa.
[ˈhotːɑ̃ːli ˈhɑu̯] [ˈʃĩːmæ̃moqu ˈhɑu̯] [ˈhotːɑ̃ːli ˈdowɑ] [ˈʃĩːmæ̃læqu ˈdowɑ]

hutta-ali haw. şîma=mu=qu haw. hutta-ali duwa. şima=la=qu duwa.
wash-ANTIP 1SG.NOM. wash_body=1SG.ACC=REFL 1SG.NOM. wash-ANTIP 3SG.NOM. wash_body=3SG.ACC=REFL 3SG.NOM.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Ashucky » 02 Sep 2014 18:59

Thakowsaizmu wrote:So I guess you could say something like vitabu vinajiosha "the books are washing themselves" (vi-tabu vi-na-ji-osha CL8-book CL8-PRES-REFL-wash), but I think those would have to be impressive or magical books [:P]
I wonder, could that construction be understood figuratively as "the books are being washed" (as it's the case with Slavic languages)?


:con: Image Laefêvëši:

Grítta. Gríttare. Gríttas. Gríttasse.
[ˈgɾiːtːa || ˈgɾiːtːaɾe || ˈgɾiːtːas || ˈgɾiːtːasːe]
grítt-a. gritt-a-re. grítt-as. grítt-as-se.
wash-1SG.PRS; wash-1SG.PRS-1SG.REFL; wash-3SG.PRS; wash-3SG.PRS-3SG.REFL
I wash. I wash myself. He washes. He washes himself.
The whole world is my garden - I have created it and I rule it. The heavens envy me, and the gods stand before me humble.
Hūmantit kuēte esti kirītu-met – ūg apēn harmi samnāntā nu ūg apān ēlhami. Nēbetar mi arsanti nu dēvei istahantar gengei par amāt.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Täzari » 02 Sep 2014 20:39

Since a reply about Italian has already been posted, I'll provide the translation into Ainu and my conlang Lözusöteli:

:ain:
ku=ihuraye
1ss=wash
"I wash"
Ø=ihuraye
3ss=wash
"He/she/it washes"

("Ø" indicates the lack of personal affixes)

Here, out of context, it is better to use the intransitive ihuraye (plural ihuraypa) which, however, means mainly "to do laundry/to wash clothes" since i- is an incorporated object that can change the meaning of an intransitive verb and not only its valence.
The corresponding transitive verb huraye can be used when an implied object, understood from previous discourse, is present or when an overt object is present.

As it happens for Japanese, in this case a reflexive counterpart of this verb is formed by using the word "body" (or also other specific body parts) as the direct object of the transitive verb. Although Ainu has a morphological reflexive "yay-" it is not productive and cannot be added to all verbs. The resulting sentences would thus be:

Kukewehe kuhuraye
ku=kew-ehe ku=Ø=huraye
1ss=body-AFF 1ss=3so=wash
I wash my body (= myself)

Kewehe huraye
Ø=kew-ehe Ø=Ø=huraye
3ss=body-AFF 3ss=3so=wash
He/she washes his/her body (= his/himself)

There are actually some forms of huraye with an incorporated object referring to a body part, like tekehuraye "to wash (someone's) hands or kemahuraye "to wash someone's feet/legs", that are lexicalized in the dictionary as intransitives, but not all the nouns referring to body parts can be incorporated. Plus, there are some verbs formed from an all different stem, like eworne "to wash (someone's) face".

1ss - first person singular subject
3ss - third person singular subject
3so - third person singular object
AFF - affiliative


:con: Lözusöteli
In Lözusöteli the reflexive is formed suffixing the accusative singular of the personal pronoun to the verb:

Nezi
nez-i

wash.pres-1s
"I wash"

Nezipa
nez-i-pa

wash.pres-1s-I.ACCs
"I wash myself"

Neześ
nez-eś

wash.pres-3s
"He/she washes"

Neześśüm/Neześśöm
nez-eś-þüm/nez-eś-þöm

wash.pres-3s-he.ACCs/wash.pres-3s-she.ACCs
"He/she washes himself/herself"
Native: :ita: - Proficient: :eng: :jpn: - Learning: :ain: :rus: Nivkh - Some notions of: Sanskrit, :dan: :isl: :lat: - Conlang: :con: Lözusöteli

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Xing » 07 Sep 2015 21:05

:con: Leopardish VII

Iben inton.
iben into-n
1 wash IPFV
[ibɛn intɔn]
I wash...

Iben inton ibekaran.
iben into-n ibe-karan
1 wash-IPFV 1-REFL
[ibɛn intɔn ibekaran]
I wash myself.

Cehen inton.
cehen into-n
3 wash-IPFV
[t͡ʃɛhɛn intɔn]
He washes...

Cehen inton naran.
cehen into-n naran
3 wash-IPFV 3.REFL
[t͡ʃɛhɛn intɔn naran]
He washes himself.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by clawgrip » 08 Sep 2015 13:40

Image Yabushionese


我、洗ふ。
Wai, arafu.

1.SG wash

我、体を洗ふ。
Wai, karada w-arafu.

1.SG body ACC=wash

彼、洗ふ。
Kare, arafu.

3.SG wash

彼、体を洗ふ。
Kare, karada w-arafu.
3.SG body ACC=wash

For the polite form, replace 洗ふ arafu with 洗ひす arafisu.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Iyionaku » 06 May 2016 22:05

:con: Caelian

Rar zufnyar. Rar Rëz zufkaic. Tot züfnyar. Tot Tul züfkic.
[raɾ zʊɸˈɲaɾ. raɾ rəs zuɸkʰaɪ̯ç. tʰɔt zʏɸˈɲaɾ. tʰɔt tʰʊl zʏɸˈkʰɪç]
1SG.NOM wash.1SG>INTR || 1SG.NOM 1SG.REFL.ACC wash.1SG>1SG || 3SG_MASC.NOM wash.3SG>INTR || 3SG_MASC.NOM 3SG_MASC.REFL.ACC wash.3SG>3SG

There are suppletive reflexive pronouns: "Rëz" for the 1st person and "Tul" for the 3rd; the default is accusative case, so that there is no special marking on the pronouns.

:con: Anto

Da puze da. Da da puze. Ton puze ton. Ton ton puze.
[ta ˈpʰut͡sɛ ta. ta ˈta ˈpʰut͡sɛ. tʰɔn ˈpʰut͡sɛ tʰɔn. tʰɔn tʰɔn ˈpʰut͡sɛ]
1SG clean 1SG || 1SG 1SG clean || 3PS clean 3.ANIM || 3PS 3.ANIM clean

Reflexitivity is simply expressed with the word order: Normally it's SOVS (or SVS in intransitive sentences), which changes to SRV (where R = reflexive).

:con: Bath'aso

Zhuts ħortobz. Zhuts kuzkob. Zhuts ħortomz. Zhuts kuzkom.
[ʐuts ʕɔrtɤbz. ʐuts kɯzkɤb. ʐuts ʕɔrtɤmz. ʐuts kɯzkɤm]
CONT wash-1SG.ERG || CONT clean-1SG.ABS || CONT wash-3SG.ERG || CONT clean-3SG.ABS

Batħaso uses two different verbs for that: The transitive "ħort" and the intransitive "kuzk". With "ħort", the personal pronouns have to be in Ergative case because otherwise the sentence would be interpreted as "I am washed". As "kuzk" is intransitive, there is no ambiguity and the objects can be in absolutive case.

:con: Paatherye

ओकु तीमज़ षोमे. ओकु तीमज़ षोमे ना. युवो तीमि षोमे. युवो तीमि षोमे ऊ ध्रा.
Ēku tīmas șēme. Ēku tīmas șēme nā. Yuwē tīmi șēme. Yuwē tīmi șēme ū dhrā.

[ˈeːku ˈtiːmas ˈʃeːme. ˈeːku ˈtimːas ˈʃeːme naː . ˈju.eː ˈtiːmi ʃeːme. ˈju.eː ˈtiːmi ʃeːme uː θraː] (F)
[ˈoːk ˈtiːmas ˈʃeːm. ˈoːk ˈtimːas ˈʃoːm naː . ˈju.oː ˈtiːm ʃeːm. ˈju.oː ˈtiːm ʃoːm uː dʰraː] (M)
1SG.NOM PROG.1SG wash.INF || 1SG.NOM PROG.1SG wash.INF 1SG.ACC || 3SG_MASC.NOM PROG.3SG wash.INF || 3SG_MASC.NOM PROG.3SG wash.INF REFL 3SG_MASC.ACC

"ū" marks a reflexive action when the object is in accusative or allative. Because the reflexity is obvious in the 1st person singular, "ū" can be omitted in the second sentence.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by GrandPiano » 28 May 2016 00:16

:eng: Old English

Ic þƿea.
[it͡ʃ θwæːɑ̯]
ic þƿea
1SG.NOM wash.1SG.NPST.IND
I wash.

Ic me þƿea.
[it͡ʃ meː θwæːɑ̯ ]
ic me þƿea
1SG.NOM 1SG.ACC wash.1SG.NPST.IND
I wash myself.

He þƿihþ.
[heː θwiːçθ]
he þƿihþ
3SG.M.NOM wash.3SG.NPST.IND
He washes.

He hine þƿihþ.
[heː ˈhine θwiːçθ]
he hine þƿihþ
3SG.M.NOM 3SG.M.ACC wash.3SG.NPST.IND
He washes himself.
Edit: Changed the word order in #2 and #4 from SVO to SOV.
Last edited by GrandPiano on 23 Sep 2017 04:16, edited 2 times in total.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Frislander » 29 May 2016 15:37

kuerypson, kuerypiitson, kueryson, kueryhiitson
[ˈku.e̞.ɾɨp.s̪ɔn̪ ˈku.e̞.ɾɨ.ˌpiːt̪.s̪ɔn̪ ˈku.e̞.ɾɨ.s̪ɔn̪ ˈku.e̞.ɾɨ.ˌhiːt̪.s̪ɔn̪]
wash.IND.1-PRF wash.IND.1-REFL-PRF wash.IND.3-PRF wash.IND.3-REFL-PRF
I wash (something), I wash myself, (s)he washes (something), (s)he washes himself

Reflexives are handled using the suffix -(h)iit, which combines with the indefinite form of the verb.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Imralu » 29 Jun 2017 05:31

I would do this in Swahili but it wouldn't demonstrate reflexives. The words for washing are very specific.

kunawa - to wash part of one's body (hands, face etc)
kuoga - to wash one's whole body (shower, bathe)

kufua - to wash clothes (lit. to beat)
kuosha - to wash something else (I think this is a causative derivation of kuoga)

Reflexive aren't needed with these verbs, and where they appear in other verbs, it's simply a -ji- before the verb stem, in the object slot, irrespective of the grammatical person or number.

EDIT: Changed word "demonstratives" to "reflexives" ... which is what I clearly meant.
Last edited by Imralu on 24 Sep 2017 00:03, edited 1 time in total.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Iyionaku » 21 Sep 2017 08:13

:con: Ular

我得洗着我。我得头洗着我。他得洗着他。他得头洗着他。

Lăn tā phăn mŏn lăn. Lăn tā thâ phăn mŏn lăn. Tōn tā phăn mŏn tōn. Tōn tā thâ phăn mŏn tōn.
[lɛn˧˩ tɛ˧ pʰɑn˧˩ mɔn˩ lɛn˩ | lɛn˧˩ tɛ˧ tʰɛ˧˦˥ pʰɑn˥˧ mɔn˧˩ lɛn˩ | tin˧ tɛ˧ pʰɑn˧˩ mɔn˩ tin˧ | tin˧ tɛ˧ tʰɛ˧˦˥ pʰɑn˥˧ mɔn˧˩ tin˧]
1SG TOP wash PROG 1SG | 1SG TOP head wash PROG 1SG | 3SG TOP wash PROG 1SG | 3SG TOP head wash PROG 3SG
I am washing. I am washing myself. He is washing. He is washing himself.

The reflexive pronoun 头 normally bears 2nd tone (mid), but changes to 4th tone (rising) after the topic particle 得.
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Re: Reflexives

Post by Threr » 23 Sep 2017 18:34

:con: Deyryck

Sélésa' : both 'I wash' and 'He washes'
wash.COAL:none

Isélésa' : I wash
I.wash.GOAL:none

Rosélésa' : He washes
he.wash.GOAL:none

Yo sélésa' : both 'I wash myself' and 'He washes himself'
oneself wash.GOAL:none

Yo isélésa' : I wash myself
oneself I.wash.GOAL:none

Yo rosélésa' : He washes himself
oneself he.wash.GOAL:none

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Salmoneus » 23 Sep 2017 23:16

Assuming the non-reflexives are transitive in meaning...

Øynduyska: Wash ie. Wash ie sie. Wesh he. Wesh he sie.

[There are also emphatic reflexive forms: Wash ie missel. Wesh he hissel.]
Last edited by Salmoneus on 24 Sep 2017 00:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reflexives

Post by Imralu » 24 Sep 2017 00:06

Thakowsaizmu wrote:
Dormouse559 wrote:
Thakowsaizmu wrote: :tan: Kiswahili
Ninaosha kitu. Ninajinawa. Anaosha kitu. Anajinawa.
/ni.nɑ.'ɔ.ʃɑ 'ki.tu/ /ni.nɑ.ʄi.'nɑ.wɑ/ /ɑ.nɑ.'ɔ.ʃɑ ki.tu/ /ɑ.nɑ.ʄi.'nɑ.wɑ/

ni-na-osha kitu. ni-na-ji-nawa. a-na-osha kitu. a-na-ji-nawa.
1ps-PRES-wash something. 1ps-PRES-REFL-wash_body. 3ps-PRES-wash something. 3ps-PRES-REFL-wash_body
Could you explain more about the different verbs here? Is nawa used for washing any body, or is it purely reflexive? Could osha ever be reflexive?
Kunawa means "to wash" as in a body part, person or self. So ananawa mikono "She is washing her hands" (a-na-nawa mi-kono 3ps-PRES-wash CL4-hand). Kuosha means "to wash something / an object". So I guess you could say something like vitabu vinajiosha "the books are washing themselves" (vi-tabu vi-na-ji-osha CL8-book CL8-PRES-REFL-wash), but I think those would have to be impressive or magical books [:P]
I didn't see this till now.
I don't think any of these can really be used reflexively. You wouldn't say ninajinawa (the only hit on Google is this thread) but just ninanawa and that only refers to washing parts of your body - hands, feet, face etc. The way I understand "I wash myself" in the original post is ninaoga "I shower/bathe", ie. washing your whole body.
Ashucky wrote:
Thakowsaizmu wrote:So I guess you could say something like vitabu vinajiosha "the books are washing themselves" (vi-tabu vi-na-ji-osha CL8-book CL8-PRES-REFL-wash), but I think those would have to be impressive or magical books [:P]
I wonder, could that construction be understood figuratively as "the books are being washed" (as it's the case with Slavic languages)?
No, I doubt it since that would be vitabu vinaoshwa, using the passive verb form.

Incidentally, kuosha "to wash [tr]" seems to be a causative derivation of kuoga "to shower/bathe".
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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