The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

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The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Xing » 02 Nov 2011 01:37

1) Peter opened the door.
2) The door opened.
3) The door was opened.
4) The door was opened by Peter
5) The door opened itself.
6) Peter made John open the door.
EDIT: 7) Peter opened. (=opened something, not that he opened up himself)

Wa‘tētexu:

1)
[ko 'ɾ̪iːkɛ ɑː piːt̪ɑ t̪ɑ 'kːoːpi]
Ko rīke ā Pīta ta ‘kōpi.
PRFT open ERG Peter DEF door

2 and 3)
[ko ɾ̪iːkɛ t̪ɑ 'kːoːpi]
Ko rīke ta ‘kōpi.
PRFT open DEF door

4)
[ko 'ɾ̪iːkɛ t̪ɑ 'kːoːpi ɑː 'piːt̪ɑ]
Ko rīke ta ‘kōki ā Pīta.
PRFT open DEF door ERG Peter

5)
[ko 'ɾ̪iːkɛ ɑː t̪ɑ 'kːoːpi 'ɾ̪ɛi]
Ko rīke ā ta ‘kōpi rei.
PRFT open ERG DEF door REFL

6)
[ko pɑː'ɾ̪iːkɛ ɑː jon̪ː 'piːt̪ɑ mɯʔ tɑ 'kːoːpi]
Ko pwarīke ā Yo‘nu Pīta muxu ta ‘kōpi.
PRFT CAUS.open ERG John Peter DAT DEF door

Alt:
[ko pɑː'ɾ̪iːkɛ ɑː jon̪ː t̪ɑ 'kːoːpi mɛː piːt̪ɑ]
Ko pwarīke ā Yo‘nu ta ‘kōpi mē Pīta.
PRFT CAUS.open ERG John DEF door INSTR Peter

EDIT:
7)
[ko 'r̪iːkɛ ɑː 'piːt̪ɑ]
Ko rīke á Pīta
PRFT open ERG Peter
Last edited by Xing on 10 Nov 2011 16:36, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Visinoid » 02 Nov 2011 02:12

I'll add the IPA and glosses...


:fra:
1) Peter (ouvrit)/(a ouvert) la porte.
2) La porte (s'ouvrit)/(s'est ouverte).
3) La porte a été ouverte.
4) La porte a été ouverte par Peter.
5) La porte (s'ouvrit)/(s'est ouverte) d'elle-même.
6) Peter (fit)/(a fait) John ouvrir la porte.

:esp:
1) Peter abrió la puerta.
2) La puerta se abrió.
3) La puerta fue abierta. (Passive is rarely used in Spanish if not at all... They'd say: Abrieron la puerta.)
4) La puerta fue abierta por Peter.
5) La puerta se abrió por sí misma.
6) Peter hizo John abrir la puerta.

:epo:
1) Peter malfermis la pordon.
2) La pordo malfermis.
3) La pordo estis malfermata.
4) La pordo estis malfermata de Peter.
5) La pordo malfermis sin.
6) Peter faris John falfermi la pordon.

Last edited by Visinoid on 19 Nov 2011 23:16, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Yagia1 » 03 Nov 2011 13:32

xingoxa wrote:1) Peter opened the door.
2) The door opened.
3) The door was opened.
4) The door was opened by Peter
5) The door opened itself.
6) Peter made John open the door.
Vayardyio:

1) Iso* ou rédisgou visse
2) E rédisgo vése
3) E rédisgo vissito stie
4) ?E-no rédisgo [anca o Iso] vissile
the-PASS door [by art-OBL Iso] open-PASS PST-3sg
5) E rédisgo vése
6) Iso ou Etouri o rédisgou vissara yése
Iso art-OBL Etouri art-OBL door-OBL open INF make-PST-3sg


vésani - to open (by itself; intransitive)
vissara - to open (transitive)
stiara - auxiliary to denote mediopassive
yésara - to make, to cause

Note:
* in Vayardyio there are no cognates to our proper names. I replaced Peter and John by common given names: Iso and Etouri. When a proper name in a sentence figures in a non-subject role, it is usually preceded by the inflected definite article (more or less like in German)
? this sentence is grammatically correct but in Vayardyio this type of passivization is normally restricted to natural persons, such as 'Peter was hit by John'. So 'the door' in fact cannot be passivized.
conlang: Vayardyio. http://conlang.wikia.com/wiki/Vayardyio
Affacite iago Vayardyio fidigou dicronésara !

native: :nld: fluent: :eng: :fra: :deu: can read: :ita: :esp:

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Khemehekis » 04 Nov 2011 12:03

Kankonian:

1. Peter duagen kutshus.
[ˈphithɚ duˈagɛn ˈkhutʃus]
Peter open+PAST door

2. Kutshus duagen.
[ˈkhutʃus duˈagɛn]
door open+PAST

3. Kutshus duagizen.
[ˈkhutʃus duagˈizɛn]
door open+PASSIVE+PAST

4. Kutshus duagizen dyu Peter.
[ˈkhutʃus duagˈizɛn dju ˈphithɚ]
door open+PASSIVE+PAST by Peter

5. Kutshus duagen zhiwan.
[ˈkhutʃus duˈagɛn ʒiˈwan]
door open+PAST self+it

Or:

Kutshus duagen seghi we.
[ˈkhutʃus duˈagɛn ˈsɛɣi we]
door open+PAST autonomous -ly

6. Peter hazien az John duagen kutshus.
[ˈphithɚ haˈziɛn az dʒɑn duˈagɛn ˈkhutʃus]
Peter make+PAST that John open+PAST door
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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Nortaneous » 05 Nov 2011 21:10

Accidentally translated them all in the present, but I can't be bothered to fix them, especially since it'd mean figuring out English tense.

Kannow: (S = sensory evidentiality, M = mediopassive, P = present tense)

1.
Rtʼaqsow Pitoŗow ltùsʼ.
[ʂt̪ʼɑqʰsəw pʰit̪ʰərəw ɬt̪ʷut͡sʼ]
r-tʼaq-s-ow pitoŗ-ow ltù-sʼ
S.P-open-C7.P.SG-C1.A.SG Peter-C1.DEF door-C7.DEF

2, 3.
Tʼaqst ltùsʼ.
[t̪ʼɑqʰst̪ʰ ɬt̪ʷʰut͡sʼ]
0-tʼaq-st ltù-sʼ
S.M.P-open-C8.A.SG door-C8.DEF

4.
Tʼaqst ltùsʼ i rew Pitoŗow.
[t̪ʼɑqʰst̪ʰ ɬt̪ʷʰut͡sʼ‿i ʈ͡ʂew pʰit̪ʰərəw]
0-tʼaq-st ltù-sʼ i r-e-ow Pitoŗ-ow
S.M.P-open-C7.A.SG door-C7.DEF and S.P-do-C1.A.SG Peter-C1.DEF

5.
Rtʼaqsst ltùsʼ.
[ʂtʼɑqʰst͡st̪ʰ ɬt̪ʷʰut͡sʼ]
r-tʼaq-s-st ltù-sʼ
S.P-open-C7.P.SG-C7.A.SG door-C7.DEF

6.
Ptʼaqnàsaw Pitoŗow ltùsʼ Janow.
[pʰt̪ʼɑqʰnʷɔsɑw pʰit̪ʰərəw ɬt̪ʷʰut͡sʼ c͡çɑnəw]
b-tʼaq-n`-sa-ow Pitoŗ-ow ltù-sʼ Jan-ow
S.CAUS.P-C1.P.SG-C8.D.SG-C1.A.SG Peter-C1.DEF door-C7.DEF John-C1.DEF

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Xing » 08 Nov 2011 16:24

Perhaps we should add an antipassive.

What about a sentence like:

7) Peter opened. (In the sense that he opened something a door or some object other than himself, not that he opened up himself.)

In Wa‘tētexu, Ko rīke á Pīta [ko 'r̪iːkɛ ɑː 'piːt̪ɑ] (PRFT open ERG Peter) - with the single argument in the ergative/agentive case, would generally be interpreted as an antipassive, though such construction are generally avoided.
Last edited by Xing on 10 Nov 2011 16:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Prinsessa » 10 Nov 2011 03:56

Kozea:

dēang wēnyāsix; 'the door opened [by itself]' (reflexive suffix -six)
dēang wēnyāpāx; 'the door [was] opened [by someone]' (passive suffix -pāx)

For these two, the past isn't expressed, though, and it's dependent on context.
To properly express the past explicitly and unambiguously, a participle has to be used. In this case, there is no difference.

a wēnyā dēang; 'the door was opened [but we don't know if it was by itself or someone else]'

We have to clarify that it was opened by someone else by saying who it was, or simply that 'someone' did it.

a wēnyā dēang ēnaeg; 'I [female] opened the door'; 'the door was opened by me [female]'
a wēnyā dēang mellāk; 'someone opened the door'; 'the door was opened by someone'

Likewise for clarification that it did it by itself:

a wēnyā dēang ēxiz; 'the door opened itself'; 'the door was opened by itself'

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Pirka » 10 Nov 2011 04:51

:rus:
1) Петр открыл дверь.
Peter open.PERF-PT.3PSG.MASC door-ACC
2) Дверь открылась.
door-NOM open.PERF-PT.3PSG.FEM-RFLX
3) Дверь открыли. ("They opened the door"; the passive translation of this would lead to some meaning such as "The door was open".)
door-ACC open.PERF-PT.3PPL
4) Дверь открыл Петр. (Passive here would sound bonkers. Basically a OVS version of the first translated sentence.)
door-ACC open.PERF-PT.3PSG.MASC Peter
5) Дверь открылась сама. (The door opened on its own.)
door-NOM open.PERF-PT.3PSG.FEM-RFLX alone-FEM
6) Петр заставил Джона открыть дверь.
Peter force.PERF-PT.3PSG.MASC John-ACC open.PERF-INF door-ACC
Last edited by Pirka on 10 Nov 2011 17:46, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Z500 » 11 Nov 2011 18:31

:deu:
1. Peter öffnete die Tür. (simple past)
2. Die Tür öffnete.
3. Die Tür wurde geöffnet.
4. Die Tür wurde von Peter geöffnet.
5. Die Tür öffnete sich selbst.
6. Peter ließ John die Tür öffnen.
7. Peter öffnete.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Ossicone » 11 Nov 2011 19:16

Please added glosses or some IPA/XSAMPA.

New Translation Guidelines

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by thetha » 12 Nov 2011 22:36

:vie: Vietnamese
Peter mở ra cánh cửa.
Peter open.out CLF door
Peter opened the door.

Cánh cửa mở ra.
CLF door open.out
The door opened.

Cánh cửa được mở ra.
CLF door PASS open.out
The door was opened.

Cánh cửa được mở ra bởi Peter.
CLF door PASS open.out by* Peter
The door was opened by Peter

Tự của cửa mở ra.
REFL GEN door open.out
The door opened itself.

Peter khiến John mở ra cửa.
Peter CAUS John open.out door
Peter made John open the door.

Peter mở ra.
Peter open.out
Peter opened (it).
Vietnamese is pro-drop, and in this case it's obvious that it's a door and not Peter opening.

*Not sure what to gloss 'by' as. Any suggestions?

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by xijlwya » 13 Nov 2011 12:41

Z500 wrote::deu:
1. Peter öffnete die Tür. (simple past)
2. Die Tür öffnete.
3. Die Tür wurde geöffnet.
4. Die Tür wurde von Peter geöffnet.
5. Die Tür öffnete sich selbst.
6. Peter ließ John die Tür öffnen.
7. Peter öffnete.
Here are the glosses for German:

1. Peter öffnete die Tür.
Peter open.PST.3SG the door

2. Die Tür öffnete sich.
The door open.PST.3SG RFLX.3SG
Your example was incorrect, "öffnen" cannot be intransitive.

3. Die Tür wurde geöffnet.
The door become.PST.3SG opened

4. Die Tür wurde von Peter geöffnet.
The door become.PST.3SG by Peter opened

5. Die Tür öffnete sich (selbst).
The door open.PST.3SG RFLX.SG3 (self).
"selbst" is optional here, serves for emphasis.

6. Peter ließ John die Tür öffnen.
Peter let.PST.3SG John the door open.INF
Feels more like "Peter had John open the door."

7. Peter öffnete etwas.
Peter open.PST.3SG something
Because "öffnen" is never intransitive.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Prinsessa » 13 Nov 2011 13:53

Vanga

For the first one, Vanga would put a reflexive personal object suffix on the verb.
For the second one, it would use a passive adjective/participle (adjective in this particular case).

The word for 'door' is jénne, becoming jénneka in it's definite form, meaning 'the door'.

The word for 'to open' is hat, and the third person object suffix, -nAve is unambiguously also the reflexive one here, since there is a fourth person.

hálata[ssi]nave jénneka; 'the door opened (itself)' (without -ssi-, quite literally 'the door opened it', but unambiguous since fourth person would be used for it to open something else)
[ˈhawɑtɑʃinɑ͡ʊwɪ ˈjɔŋɛgɑ]
open.PAST.[.REFL].3PS_OBJ door.DEF-SING

The word htófa means 'open[ed]', and it receives the aforementioned passive suffix as well as a third person attributive essence suffix.

jénneka htóflavœn; 'the door was (being) opened'
[ˈjɔŋɛɡɑ ˈɧtʰɔ͡ʊɸɬɑɸœn̥]
door.DEF-SING opened.PASSIVE-PAST.3PS_ATTR

I don't have any given names in Vanga yet, so I will just translate the Peter thing with first person instead. Here, the accusative is used, and there isn't really much exciting going on.

hálat jénnka; 'I opened the door'
[ˈhawɑt ˈjɔŋɡɑ]
open.PAST.1PS-SING door.ACC-SING.DEF-SING
Last edited by Prinsessa on 19 Nov 2011 13:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Xing » 19 Nov 2011 12:08

:con: Ksc’aiʎa:

1)
c’ulktukɬt c’aiks Peter
ʦʼuɬktʊkɬt ʦʼa͡ɪks
c’ulk-tu-k-ɬt c’aiks Peter
open-PFV-3SG.N.ABS-3SG.M.ERG door Peter
"Peter opened the door"

2)
puc’ulktuk c’aiks
pʊʦʼuɬktʊk ʦʼa͡ɪks
pu-c’ulk-tu-k c’aiks
MEDIOPASS-open-PFV-3SG.N.ABS door
"The door opened"

3)
aisc’ulktuk c’aiks
ə͡ɪ'ʦʼuɬktʊk ʦʼa͡ɪks
ais-c’ulk-tu-k c’aiks
PASS-open-PFV-3SG.N
"the door was opened"

4)
aisc’ulktuk c’aiks ksPeter
ə͡ɪsʦʼuɬktʊk ʦʼa͡ɪks kspitə
ais-c’ulk-tuk c’aiks ks-Peter
PASS-open-PFV-3SG.N.ABS GEN-Peter
"The door was opened by Peter"

5)
sk’aic’ulktuk c’aiks
skʼə͡ɪʦʼuɬktʊk ʦʼa͡ɪks
sk’ai-c’ulk-tu-k c’aiks
REFL-open-PFV-3SG.N.ABS door
"The door opened itself"

6)
c’ulktusailtlen John ksPeter nac’aiks
ʦʼuɬktʊsə͡ɪɬtən jun kspitə nəʦʼa͡ɪks
c’ulk-tu-sai-lt-len John ks-Peter na-c’aiks
open-PFV-CAUS-3SG.M.ABS-3SG.M.ABS John ERG-Peter INSTR-door
"Peter made John open the door"

7)
yac’ulktult Peter
jəʦʼuɬktʊɬt pitə
ya-c’ulk-tu-lt Peter
ANTIP-open-PFV-3.SG.ABS Peter
"Peter opened"

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by DanH34 » 09 Apr 2012 23:57

1) The man opened the door.
2) The door opened.
3) The door was opened.
4) The door was opened by the man
5) The door opened itself.
6) The man made the woman open the door.
7) The man opened. (=opened something, not that he opened up himself)

1) ozil faedef gAvgun
oz-il faed-ef g-Avgu-n
man-ERG.SG.M.TOP door-ACC.SG.M.FOC PST-open-SIMPLE

2) faed [ha]-gAvgun-iv - Uses an anti-causative verb, which can be either active or passive without changing the meaning.
faed-Ø [ha]-g-Avgu-n-iv
door-ABS.SG.M [PASSIVE]-PST-SIMPLE-INSTIGATIVE

3) faed ha-gAvgun
faed-Ø ha-g-Avgu-n
door-ABS.SG.M PASSIVE-PST-SIMPLE

4) faedef ozil gAvgun - Identical to (1), but with a different word-order, since passive verbs can't have agents in Zidhgebzhail.
faed-ef oz-il g-Avgu-n
door-ACC.SG.M.TOP man-ERG.SG.M.FOC PST-open-SIMPLE

5) faedil gAvgun-ud
faed-il g-Avgu-n-ud
door-ERG.SG.M PST-open-SIMPLE-REFLEXIVE

6) ozung azila faedef gAvgun-iv
oz-ung az-il-a faed-ef g-Avgu-n-iv
man-CAUSATIVE.SG.M woman-ERG-SG.F door-ACC.SG.M PST-open-SIMPLE-INSTIGATIVE

7) ozil [boedef] gAvgun
oz-il [boed-ef] g-Avgu-n
man-ERG.SG.M [something-ACC.SG.M] PST-open-SIMPLE
Life's a bitch, then you die.

Zidhgebzhail Orthography

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Celinceithir » 10 Apr 2012 01:04

1. Syrenoío wyðar Pethor
syren-o-ío wyðar Pethor
open.PST-3SG door Peter


2. Syrenoío wyðar
syren-o-ío wyðar
open.PST-3SG door


3. Syrenoín wyðar.
syren-o-ín wyðar
open.PST-3PL door


4. As 1 - no passive in this circumstance.

5. Syrenoío sé wyðar
syren-o-ío s-é wyðar
open.PST-3SG 3SG.ABS door


6. Erin B-Pethor, syrenoío wyðar Iochyn.
erin pethor syren-o-ío wyðar Iochyn
due-to Peter open.PST-3SG door Iochyn.


7. Syrenoío elicpeth Pethor.
syren-o-ío elic.beth Pethor
open.PST-3SG something Pethor
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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Avo » 10 Apr 2012 14:34

-
Last edited by Avo on 29 Apr 2013 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Xing » 16 Nov 2012 21:57

:con: Nizhmel


Bélboq vasliq Pezhter.
[pɪɤpɔʔ̚ vaːliʔ̚ pʰeɪ̯tʰɜː]
door open.3s Peter
"Peter opened the door."

Vasliq bélboq .
[vaːliʔ̚ pɪɤpɔʔ̚]
open.3s door
"The door opened." / "The door was opened."

Vasliq bélboq shémkul.
[vaːliʔ̚ pɪɤpɔʔ̚ ʃɛ̃ːkʰuː]
open.3s door someone
"Someone opened the door." / "The door was opened by someone."

Honvasliq bélboq.
[hɔ̃ːvaːliʔ̚ pɪɤpɔʔ̚]
REFL.open.3s door
"The door self-opened." / "The door opened itself."

C’osliq Pezhter bélboq vasliq Jon.
[ʧʼɔːliʔ̚ pʰeɪ̯tʰɜː pɪɤpɔʔ̚ vaːliʔ̚ ʧɔ̃ː]
cause.3s Peter door open.3s John
"Peter made John open the door."

C’ercal vasliq Pezhter.
[ʧʰɜːʧʰæɤ̯ vaːliʔ̚ pʰeɪ̯tʰɜː
something open.3s Peter
"Peter opened (something)."

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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by decem » 16 Nov 2012 22:38

Image Cagieje

1) Peter opened the door.
Pidro avertut purdán.

2) The door opened.
Purdán seo avertut.

3) The door was opened.
Purdán fut avertu.

4) The door was opened by Peter.
Purdán fut avertu da Pidro.

5) The door opened itself.
Purdán seo avertut.

6) Peter made John open the door.
Pidro azut qua Huan avrat purdán.

7) Peter opened [something].
Pidro avertut [cosa].
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Re: The door opened, the door was opened... (voice)

Post by Ean » 16 Nov 2012 23:15

Visinoid wrote:1) Peter abrió la puerta.
2) La puerta se abrió.
3) La puerta fue abierta. (Passive is rarely used in Spanish if not at all... They'd say: Abrieron la puerta.)
4) La puerta fue abierta por Peter.
5) La puerta se abrió por sí misma. (or, more commonly: sola)
6) Peter (le) hizo a John abrir la puerta.
Portuguese:
1) Pedro abriu a porta.
2) A porta abriu-se.
3) A porta foi aberta. (ou: abriram a porta / alguém abriu a porta) Lit: they/somebody opened the door
4) A porta foi aberta por Pedro.
5) A porta abriu-se por si própria. (ou: sozinha) Lit: alone, by itself
6) O Pedro fez com que o João abrisse a porta.

Irlandic (my romlang):
1) Pedre aureu la porta.
2) La porta s'aureu. (Largely replaced by 3) )
3) La porta fou averta.
4) La porta fou averta a Pedre.
5) La porta s'aureu a sé (evessa). Lit: by the same it, cf. Sp. "por sí misma".
6) Pedre feç i Ioan aurís la porta.

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