Complement Clauses

A forum for translations, translation challenges etc. Good place to increase your conlang's vocabulary.
Post Reply
User avatar
ol bofosh
roman
roman
Posts: 1118
Joined: 27 Aug 2012 13:59
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Complement Clauses

Post by ol bofosh » 25 Feb 2013 20:36

Next lot of subclauses, see how your languages translate these...

Noun-complement
The report [that mobile phones cause memory loss] has been challenged.

Adjective-complement
I am sure [that Susie is coming].

Verb-complement
My doctor says [that I drink too much].

Noun-complement
Otawto pa ulep uladey sumud nepiwt faduy bathefith.
otaw-t-o pa ulep uladey sumu;d nepiw-t faduy bathefith
Oppose-PRS-PRF DEF report to.say mobile.communication.device;PL cause-PRS to.lose memory
Spoiler:
In this case Alahithian relies on a relative clause "The reports that say..."
Adjective-complement
Om bolakirt ol susi inediyt.
om bolakir-t ol susi inediy-t
1SG be.covinced-PRS PR Susie come-PRS

Spoiler:
There are no adjective complement clauses in Alahithian. Here it is translated into a verb complement clause.
Verb-complement
Shom zuyak ulewt om ñoñort aba.
shom zuyak ulew-t om ñoñor-t aba
POSS.1SG medical.doctor report-PRS 1SG consume.alcohol excessively
Spoiler:
Verb-complements follow a simple structure: I think [you stink], We made [the enemy run away]
Subclauses in Alahithian: relative, verb-complement and conjunctions.

Valosken
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 178
Joined: 07 May 2012 11:37

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Valosken » 26 Feb 2013 21:59

I've never quite understood what exactly a complement is.
(except nice things you can say about someone)
First, I learned English.
Dann lernte ich Deutsch.
Y ahora aprendo Español.

User avatar
ol bofosh
roman
roman
Posts: 1118
Joined: 27 Aug 2012 13:59
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by ol bofosh » 26 Feb 2013 22:47

Nor do I, which is why it's not included in Alahithian (except maybe verb complements?).

My grammar dictionary unhelpfully says:
A clause which is introduced by a COMPLEMENTIZER (though this may sometimes be optionally ommited) and which is attached to a preceding noun, adjective or verb.
Then it gives the examples above.

Okay, let's look at complementizer:
The part of speech which includes the words which introduce complement clauses[!], most commonly that and whether (and also if, when this means whether).
I get the sense of a catch-22, don't you?

Complement clauses are introduced by complementizers. Complementizers are what introduce complement clauses.

You could go in circles with that for a while.

One helpful example is to contrast noun-complement clauses with relative clauses:

Relative: The reports that Ted is sending are surprising.
Complement: The reports that Ted is sending poison-pen letters are surprising.

Anyway, my own interest isn't to replicate or understand complement clauses, just to be able to translate them into Alahithian within the limits of its grammar. [:)]

Trailsend
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1622
Joined: 18 Aug 2010 04:22

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Trailsend » 27 Feb 2013 08:05

Many explanations of "complements" are somewhat fuzzy, because there isn't an entirely consistent usage of the term. Typically, a complement "completes" the meaning of a constituent in a way relative clauses don't. Complements and their behavior are especially important to many syntactic theories.

As an example:

"I said that I would go tomorrow."

that I would go tomorrow is the complement of "said". It is a dependent clause that completes the meaning of its head. Contrast this with a relative clause, which just qualifies the meaning of its head—e.g., I meant the words that I said. As usual in linguistics, there are some cases that dance over this line, but it's at least good for some intuition.
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。

Valosken
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 178
Joined: 07 May 2012 11:37

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Valosken » 27 Feb 2013 18:26

But see, I have that processed as just adding a dependent noun clause as the object.
First, I learned English.
Dann lernte ich Deutsch.
Y ahora aprendo Español.

User avatar
ol bofosh
roman
roman
Posts: 1118
Joined: 27 Aug 2012 13:59
Location: tʰæ.ɹʷˠə.ˈgɜʉ̯.nɜ kʰæ.tə.ˈlɜʉ̯.nʲɜ spɛ̝ɪ̯n ˈjʏː.ɹəʔp

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by ol bofosh » 27 Feb 2013 20:21

My grammar dictionary has 6 different versions, one of which seems to be a shortening of "complement clause". Out of the examples above only the verb-complement clause loses something grammatically, so is a complement in the way that Trailsend explains (i.e. it "completes" the sentence, and is not an adjunct, i.e. optional). The other two can grammatically get away with losing their "complements".

From what I understand:
Verb-complement clauses can be distinguished from adjuncts and adverbials clauses (next list of translations, lol) and noun-complement clauses from relative clauses (the report that mobile phones cause memory loss vs. the report that causes memory loss). Adjective-complement clauses don't seem to be confusable things with other things.

I'd also tentatively say that there are complements (prepositional phrases come to mind) that are not complement clauses, since each clause is assigned (to?) a verb.

I see [through solid objects] - through solid objects is not an adjunct, because it is not optional, it is not a complement clause nor adverbial clause, because it has no verb, but it is a complement because it completes the sentence.

Not all complement clauses are complements, and not all complements are clauses. And complements aren't adjuncts.

I tried to keep this simple, just a paragraph or two, but this subject just won't behave itself. [xD]

User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5682
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Lao Kou » 28 Feb 2013 09:46

ol bofosh wrote:Next lot of subclauses, see how your languages translate these...

Noun-complement
The report [that mobile phones cause memory loss] has been challenged.

Adjective-complement
I am sure [that Susie is coming].

Verb-complement
My doctor says [that I drink too much].
These all take the discoursive mood in Géarthnuns:

Chí tsérhashmöls löt, gü chök içbdörebsöp lan cha rhagaçönsat (çéda) höinrözh sho, ebrümöl.
[tʃi tse'Xaʃmøls 'løt, gy tʃøk ɪɕbdø'ɾɛbsøp 'lan tʃa Xaga'ɕœ̃sat (ɕe'da) høj.n.'ɾøʒ ʃo, ɛbɾy'møl]
DEF report-NOM AUX/PERF/PASS, PTCL DEF/PL cell.phone-NOM/PL AUX/PRES/CAUS DEF memory-ACC (cause) reduce-DISC PTCL, controvert
or
Chí tsérhashmöls, gü chök içbdörebsöp lan cha rhagaçönsat (çéda) höinrözh sho, löt ebrümöl.
[tʃi tse'Xaʃmøls, gy tʃøk ˌɪɕbdø'ɾɛbsøp 'lan tʃa Xaga'ɕœ̃sat (ɕe'da) ˌhøj.n.'ɾøʒ ʃo, 'løt ˌɛbɾy'møl]
DEF report-NOM, PTCL DEF.PL cell.phone-NOM.PL AUX.PRES.CAUS DEF memory-ACC (cause) reduce-DISC PTCL, AUX.PRESPRF.PASS controvert
The report that mobile phones cause memory loss has been challenged.

Sí la gbaret, gü Suzans lí höithauth sho, nöi. or Sí la, gü Suzans lí höithauth sho, gbaret nöi.
[si la 'gbaɾɛt, gy su'zɑ̃s 'li høj'θɔθ ʃo, 'nøj] or [si 'la, gy su'zɑ̃s 'li høj'θɔθ ʃo, 'gbaɾɛt 'nøj]
1SG-NOM AUX.PRES sure-NOM, PTCL Susan-NOM AUX.FUT come-DISC PTCL, be or 1SG-NOM AUX.PRES sure-NOM, PTCL Susan-NOM AUX.FUT come-DISC PTCL, sure-NOM be
I am sure that Susie is coming. ("la", AUX.PRES, in the subclause would mean that she's en route right now)

Chau tezemars (síter) la, gü sí la rhösa'u höifroman sho, ngamath.
[tʃɔ 'tɛzɛˌmaɾs ('sitɛr) ˌla, gy si 'la Xø'sa.u høj'fɾoman ʃo, 'ŋamaθ]
DEF doctor-NOM (my-NOM) AUX.PRES, PTCL 1SG-NOM AUX.PRES too drink.(alcoholic.beverage)-DISC PTCL, say
My doctor says that I drink too much.
Last edited by Lao Kou on 12 Jun 2014 13:02, edited 2 times in total.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

Trailsend
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1622
Joined: 18 Aug 2010 04:22

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Trailsend » 28 Feb 2013 13:27

Valosken wrote:But see, I have that processed as just adding a dependent noun clause as the object.
Correct! Because the object of a verb is the verb's complement, even when it's not a dependent clause.

I bought some milk. <-- complement of "bought"

But things besides verbs can have complements. Certain nouns can:

The rumor that I murdered you is causing quite a stir.

(Note that this is not a relative clause. Compare The rumor that you started is causing quite a stir, where "that you started" is a relative clause, and not the complement of "rumor.")

Certain adjectives too:

I am certain that he is guilty.
任何事物的发展都是物极必反,否极泰来。

User avatar
Imralu
roman
roman
Posts: 905
Joined: 17 Nov 2013 22:32

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Imralu » 20 Jan 2019 21:34

EPIC NECRO!

:con: Ngolu / Iliaqu

In Ngolu, the complementiser zuo inflects for case just as any nominal does: zuo in nominative and jo in accusative (underlyingly zu+o / zi+o, cf. the 3rd person singular indefinite specific inanimate nominals zu and zi in nominative and accusative respectively). Complement clauses are treated no differently than any other nominal phrase (argument/adjunct).

Because tunazoi "(be a) report", ba mahu "(be) sure" (literally ≈ very much know) and zoi "say" are all one part of speech in Ngolu, there is nothing particularly interesting to say except that, because tunazoi is embedded within a nominal phrase and its dependent complement clause must exist within that nominal phrase, modifying it, and must on no account begin a new nominal phrase (which would instead modify the predicate phrase), the prenasalising copula/verbaliser (glossed VB) is attached to the complementiser. Here, I opted for the nominative complementiser zuo, giving xi tunazoi nzuo ... "the report (which is) that ...", but another possibility would have been the topical case (marking a semantic topic, ≈ 'about', and not a grammatical topic), giving xi tunazoi mvejo ... "the report (which is) about that ..."

This prenasalising copula/verbaliser can also be seen in this examples in g-uni [ŋuní] VB-GEN.1S.ICS. Without it, the genitive "my" would not refer to the doctor, but back to the predicate phrase zoi meaning that he one who 'says' is somehow mine. The one who says is, of course, the doctor, as indicated by the nominative argument, but my relationship with this person is that they are my "doctor", not as my "person who says", so it really must refer back to the doctor. In other sentences, both g-uni and uni may be used with only a small, nuanced difference in meaning, but here, the copula/verbaliser g- must be used.

Ti zoizaha xi tunazoi [nzuo kue mienamiena ixu kuilakuaqa kikuoi].
[tí zojzahá ʃí tunazoí‿nzwó kwé mjenamjenâ‿jʃú kwilakwaʔá kikwoí]
The report [that mobile phones cause memory loss] has been challenged.

Ba mahu eni [zuo mie ja Zuzi].
[bá mahú ení zwǒ mjě ʒá zuzí]
I am sure [that Susie is coming.]

Zoi ju viaua guni [jo huna gegue nu lo bai].
[zoí ʒú vjawǎ ŋuní ʒó huná ŋeŋwě nú ló baí]
My doctor says [that I drink too much].

Here are the glosses and phrase breakdowns. For the dependency trees (which look more like vines) click here.

Code: Select all

(1)

 ti   zoi-zaha
 PRF  say-fight.without.weapons
[VP____________________________]




 xi               tuna-zoi  n- zuo    kue     mienamiena  ixu             ku-ila-kuaqa    ki-kuoi
 ACC.3S.DEF.INAN  text-say  VB-NOM.C  create  forgetful   NOM.3P.DEF.INAN tool-speak-far  without-string
[ACC....................................................................................................]
                  [VP___________________________________________________________________________________]
                              [NOM......................................................................]
                                     [VP________________][NOM...........................................]
                                                                         [VP____________________________]

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

(2)

 ba       mahu      eni         zuo    mie     ja              Zuzi
 extreme  be.known  DAT.1S.ICS  NOM.C  on.way  NOM.3S.DEF.ACS  Susie
[VP_______________][DAT.......][NOM.................................]
                                      [VP____][NOM..................]
                                                              [VP___]

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________

(3)

 zoi  ju          viaua  g -uni         jo     huna   gegue       nu          lo   bai
 say  NOM.3S.ICS  doctor VB-GEN.1S.ICS  ACC.C  drink  intoxicant  NOM.1S.ICS  ADV  excessive
[VP_][NOM.............................][ACC.................................................]
                 [VP__________________]       [VP_______________][NOM.......][ADV...........]
                           [GEN.......]                                           [VP_______]
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
________
MY MUSIC

Iyionaku
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1633
Joined: 25 May 2014 13:17

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Iyionaku » 21 Jan 2019 14:37

:chn: Mandarin (attempt)

Noun complements are always put in front of the head noun.

[关于手机导致记忆力​丧失]的报告被质疑了。
Guānyú shŏujī dăozhì jìyìlì​ sàngshī de bàogào bèi zhíyíle.
about phone cause memory loss ATTR report PAS question-PERF
The report that mobile phones cause memory loss has been challenged.

Adjective complements are more or less built the same way as in English (I assume, at least).

我相信苏西会来。
Wŏ xiāngxìn Sūxī huì lái.
1SG believe PROP FUT come
I am sure that Susie is coming.

Same for verbs (at least in this example?)

我医生告诉了我往往喝酒太多了。
Wŏ yīshēng gàosùle wŏ wăngwăng hējiŭ tài duōle
1SG doctor tell-PERF 1SG usually drink_alcohol too often 了
My doctor told me that I drink too much.
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

User avatar
Reyzadren
sinic
sinic
Posts: 381
Joined: 14 May 2017 09:39
Contact:

Re: Complement Clauses

Post by Reyzadren » 21 Jan 2019 15:21

:con: griuskant (without the conscript)

kroit zhed laeza zhaed sterhorish tisa retuspanor raes ashaeistan.
/'krɔit ʒəd 'lezˤa ʒed 'stərhɔriʃ 'tisa 'rətuspanɔr 'res 'aʃeistan/
report REL show-V COMP hand.phone cause-V memory.decrease-V-PASS-EB-IMP 3SG anti-yes-V-PASS

aesk gathia zhaed suzi sula.
/'esk 'gaθia ʒed 'suzˤi 'sula/
1SG sure-A-V COMP Suzie come-V

aeskae stoene kiga zhaed aesk ilzis is opa.
/'eske 'stɯnə 'kiga ʒed 'esk 'ilzˤis 'is 'ɔpa/
1SG-POSS doctor-N talk-V COMP 1SG too many food-V
Image Soundcloud Profile | Image griuskant conlang

Post Reply