Relative tense

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Dormouse559
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Re: Relative tense

Post by Dormouse559 » 28 Aug 2014 05:22

:fra: French

J'ai vu que quelqu'un mangeait le gâteau.
/ʒɛ vy k kɛlkœ̃ mɑ̃ʒɛ l gɑto/
1SG=have.1SG see-PST_PTCP SUB_CNJ someone eat-3SG.IPRF DEF.M cake

J'ai vu que quelqu'un avait mangé le gâteau.
/ʒɛ vy k kɛlkœ̃‿navɛ mɑ̃ʒe l gɑto/
1SG=have.1SG see-PST_PTCP SUB_CNJ someone have-3SG.IPRF eat-PST_PTCP DEF.M cake

Je vois que quelqu'un mange le gâteau.
/ʒ vwa k kɛlkœ̃ mɑ̃ʒ lə gɑto/
1SG see[3SG] SUB_CNJ someone eat[3SG] DEF.M cake

Je vois que quelqu'un a mangé le gâteau.
/ʒ vwa k kɛlkœ̃‿na mɑ̃ʒe l gɑto/
1SG see[3SG] SUB_CNJ someone have.3SG eat-PST_PTCP DEF.M cake


:con: Selvesc
The first option on the first two sentences implies that you saw this recently, at most a few days ago. The second option in the same sentences means that you saw this more than a few days ago.

Ó vesud / Vesèi ca calcùn mangzava le tort.
[ˈɔ vɛˈzot vɛˈzaɪ̯ ka kalˈkon manˈdʑava lə ˈtɔɾt]
have.1SG see-PST_PTCP / see-1SG.PST SUB_CNJ someone eat-IPRF-3SG DEF.F.OBL cake[OBL]

Ó vesud / Vesèi ca calcùn èu mangzad le tort.
[ˈɔ vɛˈzot vɛˈzaɪ̯ ka kalˈkon ˈaʊ̯ manˈdʑat lə ˈtɔɾt]
have.1SG see-PST_PTCP / see-1SG.PST SUB_CNJ someone have.3SG.PST eat-PST_PTCP DEF.F.OBL cake[OBL]

Gzo ves ca calcùn mange le tort.
[ˈdʑɔ ˈvɛs ka kalˈkon ˈmandʑə lə ˈtɔɾt]
1SG see[1SG] SUB_CNJ someone eat[3SG] DEF.F.OBL cake[OBL]

Gzo ves ca calcùn à mangzad le tort.
[ˈdʑɔ ˈvɛs ka kalˈkon ˈa manˈdʑat lə ˈtɔɾt]
1SG see[1SG] SUB_CNJ someone have.3SG eat-PST_PTCP DEF.F.OBL cake[OBL]


:con: Untitled
This language doesn't have grammatical tense. It does encode aspect. Perfective aspect often corresponds to the simple past in English but not often enough that this would be understood out of context; adding jattasi ("then") makes the past tense explicit. Out of context, the continuous aspect is assumed to refer to the present, so no adverb is necessary.

ʻAwrali jamû kumaguku daxiʻu (jattasi).
[ˈʔɑu̯rɑ̃li ˈʒæ̃muː ˈkõmɑ̃ŋoku ˈdɑxeʔu ˈʒɑtːɑsi]
ʻaw-rali ja=mû kuma-gu-k daxiʻu jattasi
PFV-see PRP=1SG.LAT eat-PAS-INF bread then

ʻAwrali jamû tîxi kamaguku daxiʻu (jattasi).
[ˈʔɑu̯rɑ̃li ˈʒæ̃muː ˈtiːxi ˈkõmɑ̃ŋoku ˈdɑxeʔu ˈʒɑtːɑsi]
ʻaw-rali ja=mû tîxi kuma-gu-k daxiʻu jattasi
PFV-see PRP=1SG.LAT before eat-PAS-INF bread then

Rali jamû kumaguku daxiʻu.
[ˈrɑ̃li ˈʒæ̃muː ˈkõmɑ̃ŋoku ˈdɑxeʔu]
rali ja=mû kuma-gu-k daxiʻu
[CONT]see PRP=1SG.LAT eat-PAS-INF bread

Rali jamû tîxi kumaguku daxiʻu.
[ˈrɑ̃li ˈʒæ̃muː ˈtiːxi ˈkõmɑ̃ŋoku ˈdɑxeʔu
rali ja=mû tîxi kuma-gu-k daxiʻu
[CONT]see PRP=1SG.LAT before eat-PAS-INF bread

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Re: Relative tense

Post by Iyionaku » 27 Mar 2016 17:14

I saw that someone was eating the cake.
I saw that someone had eaten the cake.
I see that someone is eating the cake.
I see that someone has eaten the cake.

:deu: German

Ich sah, dass jemand den Kuchen aß.
Ich sah, dass jemand den Kuchen gegessen hatte.
Ich sehe, dass jemand den Kuchen isst.
Ich sehe, dass jemand den Kuchen gegessen hat.

(This is prescriptive language, in familiar speech there would be no Präteritum tense but Perfekt tense)

:con: Yélian

Yivalai pi teʻa yimuyet u'mesól.
PST-see>1SG that someone PST-eat>3SG INAN-cake

Yivalai pi teʻa yiadésmuyet u'mesól.
PST-see>1SG that someone PST-already-eat>3SG INAN-cake

Valai pi teʻa muyet u'mesól.
see>1SG that someone eat>3SG INAN-cake

Valai pi teʻa yimuyet u'mesól.
see>1SG that someone PST-eat>3SG INAN-cake

There is no real past perfect in Yélian, instead you need to use adverbs that can express the perfective aspect, like adés (already), piytit (before) or ivon (finished)

:con: Caelian

Rar situdlyaz viz zöfang pillyunget simüstil.
1SG.NOM PST-see>SUB.1SG_INTR that someone cake.ACC PST-eat>SUB.3SG_OBJ.3SG

Rar situdlyaz viz zöfang pillyunget timüstil.
1SG.NOM PST-see>SUB.1SG_INTR that someone cake.ACC PREPST-eat>SUB.3SG_OBJ.3SG

Rar tudlyaz viz zöfang pillyunget müstil.
1SG.NOM see>SUB.1SG_INTR that someone cake.ACC eat>SUB.3SG_OBJ.3SG

Rar tudlyaz viz zöfang pillyunget simüstil.
1SG.NOM see>SUB.1SG_INTR that someone cake.ACC PST-eat>SUB.3SG_OBJ.3SG

To express actions before the past, there is the Pre-Past, marked with the prefix -ti.

:con: Anto

Da jezaje-da shas i'mom tote fezajfe-ton.
1SG see-PST-1SG someone IMPF cake eat-PST-3.ANIM

Da jezaje-da shas tote fezajfe-ton.
1SG see-PST-1SG someone cake eat-PST-3.ANIM

Da jeza-da shas tote fezaj-ton.
1SG see-1SG someone cake eat-3.ANIM

Da jeza-da shas tote fezajfe-ton.
1SG see-1SG someone cake eat-PST-3.ANIM

If an action in the past is not marked particularly as imperfective with particles like i'mom (at the moment), it is usually considered as completed to the speaking time. Therefore, the "past perfect" temporal stage is the unmarked form, whereas the "imperfective past" temporal stage is marked.

:con: Orkish

Khek kunnsob hax, zhuts gratst shamadzhez ptrelzhekt.
PERF see-1SG.ABS that CONT eat someone-ERG cake.ABS

Khek kunnsob hax, shext gratst shamadzhez ptrelzhekt.
PERF see-1SG.ABS that TERM eat someone-ERG cake.ABS

Kunnsob hax, zhuts gratst shamadzhez ptrelzhekt.
see-1SG.ABS that CONT eat someone-ERG cake.ABS

Kunnsob hax, khek gratst shamadzhez ptrelzhekt.
see-1SG.ABS that PERF eat someone-ERG cake.ABS

You use khek as a particle for the perfective aspect and zhuts as a particle for the continuative-progressive aspect. If the action that is described is finished already, it is possible to use khek in both main clause and subordinate clause, but this is considered bad style. You can use shext instead, which is normally the particle for the terminative aspect, but gets pre-past functions here.

:con: Elfish

ओकु तेऌपज़ व्वयू फि विड़्की पैथेड़ मो पेसड़्को.
Ēku telpas vayū phi wirkī payther mē pesarkē.

1SG.NOM get-PRS>1SG see.PP that eat.IMP>3SG someone.NOM DEF.MASC.ACC cake.ACC

ओकु तेऌपज़ व्वयू फि तिऌपुण पैथेड़ वुड़्कु मो पेसड़्को.
Ēku telpas vayū phi tilpun payther wurkū mē pesarkē.

1SG.NOM get-PRS>1SG see.PP that get-IMP>3SG someone.NOM eat.PP DEF.MASC.ACC cake.ACC

ओकु व्वयियज़ फि तीमज़ पैथेड़ वेज़्कमे मो पेसड़्को.
Ēku vayiyas phi tīmas payther weskame mē pesarkē.

1SG.NOM see.PRS>1SG that PROG.PRS>3SG esomeone.NOM at.INF DEF.MASC.ACC cake.ACC

ओकु व्वयियज़ फि पैथेड़ तेऌपज़ वुड़्कु मो पेसड़्को.
Ēku vayiyas phi telpas payther wurkū me pesarkē.

1SG.NOM see.PRS>1SG that get.PRS>3SG someone.NOM eat.PP DEF.MASC.ACC cake.ACC

There are a lot of options to express time stages. For ongoing actions in the past, you have the choice between imperfect tense and a combination of imperfect tense with progressive aspect, which is not seen gladly in higher textes. In the pre-past stage, you have the choice between Pluperfect forms of either aorist (only in colloquial speech), preterite (nearly only in formal speech) and imperfect (in both). I'm not sure which one is the correct form in the second sentences, so I went after an advice of the Elfish language community: "Imperfective pluperfect might sound odd but is never wrong".
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Creyeditor
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Re: Relative tense

Post by Creyeditor » 27 Mar 2016 17:52

Iyionaku wrote:I saw that someone was eating the cake.
I saw that someone had eaten the cake.
I see that someone is eating the cake.
I see that someone has eaten the cake.

:deu: German

Ich sah, dass jemand den Kuchen aß.
Ich sah, dass jemand den Kuchen gegessen hatte.
Ich sehe, dass jemand den Kuchen isst.
Ich sehe, dass jemand den Kuchen gegessen hat.

(This is prescriptive language, in familiar speech there would be no Präteritum tense but Perfekt tense)
Here is a more descriptive approach:

:deu: :de-hh: :de-ni: My own idiolect

Ich hab gesehen, wie jemand den Kuchen gegessen hat.
[ǁ(ĭ̥)çap‿gə.ˈseːn͡ɱ ǀ vi‿ˈʝe.mant̚ d̥en͡ŋ‿ˈkuːχŋ gə.ˈgɛsn‿h̆at̚ ǁ]
ich hab ge-seh-en wie jemand den Kuchen geg-ess-en ha-t
1SG AUX.PST PTCP-see-PTCP how someone DEF.ACC.M.SG cake PTCP-eat-PTCP AUX.PST-3SG
I saw that someone was eating the cake. (I was there the whole time.)

Ich hab gesehen, dass jemand den Kuchen gegessen hat.
[ǁ(ĭ̥)çap‿gə.ˈseːn͡ɱ ǀ da̽̆s‿ˈʝe.mant̚ d̥en͡ŋ‿ˈkuːχŋ gə.ˈgɛsn‿h̆at̚ ǁ]
ich hab ge-seh-en dass jemand den Kuchen geg-ess-en ha-t
1SG AUX.PST PTCP-see-PTCP COMPL someone DEF.ACC.M.SG cake PTCP-eat-PTCP AUX.PST-3SG
I saw that someone had eaten the cake. (I just noticed it a minute ago. I thought we would it the cake together [:(] )

Ich hab gesehen, dass jemand den Kuchen gegessen hatte.
[ǁ(ĭ̥)çap‿gə.ˈseːn͡ɱ ǀ da̽̆s‿ˈʝe.mant̚ d̥en͡ŋ‿ˈkuːχŋ gə.ˈgɛsn‿ˈh̆a.təǁ]
ich hab ge-seh-en dass jemand den Kuchen geg-ess-en ha-te
1SG AUX.PST PTCP-see-PTCP COMPL someone DEF.ACC.M.SG cake PTCP-eat-PTCP AUX.PST-3SG.PST
I saw that someone had eaten the cake. (some time ago, e.g. yesterday)

Ich seh, wie jemand den Kuchen isst.
[ǁ(ĭ̥)ç.ˈseːǀ vi‿ˈʝe.mant̚ d̥en͡ŋ‿ˈkuːχŋ‿ʔɪstǁ]
ich seh wie jemand den Kuchen iss-t.
1SG see how someone DEF.ACC.M.SG cake eat-3SG
I see that someone is eating the cake. (e.g. I'm describing a film)

Ich seh, dass jemand den Kuchen gegessen hat.
[ǁ(ĭ̥)ç.ˈseːǀ da̽̆s‿ˈʝe.mant̚ d̥en͡ŋ‿ˈkuːχŋ gə.ˈgɛsn‿h̆at̚ ǁ]
ich seh, dass jemand den Kuchen geg-ess-en ha-t
1SG see COMPL someone DEF.ACC.M.SG PTCP-eat-PTCP AUX.PST-3SG
I see that someone has eaten the cake. (There is no cake left, so someone must have eaten it.)
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Re: Relative tense

Post by jute » 29 Mar 2016 14:15

I saw that someone was eating the cake.

I saw that someone had eaten the cake.

I see that someone is eating the cake.

I see that someone has eaten the cake.
The difference is only expressed via the adverbs 'he' (literally 'now', progressive aspect), 'lomohe' (literally 'already', perfective aspect) and 'dote' (literally 'once, earlier, at some point in the past', used as a generic past marker)

Joo ta a hemohi a hovanefade a sainiki dote he.
See 1S of eat-GER of cake-OBL of someone once PROG

Joo ta a hemohi a hovanefade a sainiki dote lomohe.
See 1S of eat-GER of cake-OBL of someone once PERF

Joo ta a hemohi a hovanefade a sainiki he.
See 1S of eat-GER of cake-OBL of someone PROG

Joo ta a hemohi a hovanefade a sainiki lomohe.
See 1S of eat-GER of cake-OBL of someone PERF
Jutean: Hawaiian phonology meets Tagalog, with English ergativity and Mandarin tenselessness added.
Also on CWS.
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Re: Relative tense

Post by GrandPiano » 29 Mar 2016 14:56

Lemme attempt this in :zho: Mandarin...

(For each sentence, the first sentence shows the components of compound words, and the second one shows their meanings.)

我看见了某人在吃蛋糕。
Wǒ kànjiàn le mǒurén zài chī dàngāo.
[wɔ˨˩ kʰan˥˧t͡ɕjɛn˥˩ lɤ̆˩ məʊ̯˨˩ʐən˧˥ t͡saɪ̯˥˩ ʈ͡ʂʰʐ̩˥ tan˥˩kɑʊ̯˥]
1[SG] look-see PRF certain-person PROG eat egg-cake
1[SG] look-see PRF someone PROG eat cake
I saw that someone was eating the cake.

我看见了某人吃了蛋糕。
Wǒ kànjiàn le mǒurén chī le dàngāo.
[wɔ˨˩ kʰan˥˧t͡ɕjɛn˥˩ lɤ̆˩ məʊ̯˨˩ʐən˧˥ ʈ͡ʂʰʐ̩˥ lɤ̆˨ tan˥˩kɑʊ̯˥]
1[SG] look-see PRF certain-person eat PRF egg-cake
1[SG] look-see PRF someone eat PRF cake
I saw that someone had eaten the cake.

我看见某人在吃蛋糕。
Wǒ kànjiàn mǒurén zài chī dàngāo.
[wɔ˨˩ kʰan˥˧t͡ɕjɛn˥˩ məʊ̯˨˩ʐən˧˥ t͡saɪ̯˥˩ ʈ͡ʂʰʐ̩˥ tan˥˩kɑʊ̯˥]
1[SG] look-see certain-person PROG eat egg-cake
1[SG] look-see someone PROG eat cake
I see that someone is eating the cake.

我看见某人吃了蛋糕。
Wǒ kànjiàn mǒurén chī le dàngāo.
[wɔ˨˩ kʰan˥˧t͡ɕjɛn˥˩ məʊ̯˨˩ʐən˧˥ ʈ͡ʂʰʐ̩˥ lɤ̆˨ tan˥˩kɑʊ̯˥]
1[SG] look-see certain-person eat PRF egg-cake
1[SG] look-see someone eat PRF cake
I see that someone has eaten the cake.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Re: Relative tense

Post by ol bofosh » 10 Apr 2016 23:03

Alahithian
Om hesirk savot ex pa fin toñ mawka pa kexet.
1s see-PST person some CONJ while 3s eat-PST-IMPRF DEF cake.
I saw that someone was eating the cake (lit. I saw someone whilst they were eating the cake)

Om hesirt savot ex pa fin toñ mawta pa kexet.
1s see-PRS person some CONJ while 3s eat-PRS-IMPRF DEF cake.
I see that someone is eating the cake.

I saw that someone had eaten the cake.

I see that someone has eaten the cake.

Not sure about how to deal with the last two at present. There's no such thing as a tensed verb complement clause in Alahithian (I think, I should go over my notes), so, like the above phrases, this is dealt with with a conjunction (combination of conjunction particle and postposition), but not sure what to put as a direct object in the first main clause.
"I saw ...? since/once the cake had been eaten by someone(someone had eaten the cake)"

I'll give it some thought and come back to this.

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Re: Relative tense

Post by Jake » 11 Apr 2016 01:04

I saw that someone was eating the cake and I saw that someone had eaten the cake.
Ja oqud́ a komud́ qéqa
[jɑː oʊxuːð ɑː koʊmuːð xeɪxɑː]
I saw something ate cake

I see that someone is eating the cake.
Ja oquń a komuń qéqa
[jɑː oʊxuːŋ ɑː koʊmuːŋ xeɪxɑː]
I seeing something eating cake

I see that someone has eaten the cake.
Ja oquń a komud́ qéqa
[jɑː oʊxuːŋ ɑː koʊmuːð xeɪxɑː]
I see something ate cake

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Re: Relative tense

Post by ol bofosh » 11 Apr 2016 12:07

ol bofosh wrote:Alahithian
Om hesirk savot ex pa fin toñ mawka pa kexet.
1s see-PST person some CONJ while 3s eat-PST-IMPRF DEF cake.
I saw that someone was eating the cake (lit. I saw someone whilst they were eating the cake)

Om hesirt savot ex pa fin toñ mawta pa kexet.
1s see-PRS person some CONJ while 3s eat-PRS-IMPRF DEF cake.
I see that someone is eating the cake.

I saw that someone had eaten the cake.

I see that someone has eaten the cake.

Not sure about how to deal with the last two at present. There's no such thing as a tensed verb complement clause in Alahithian (I think, I should go over my notes), so, like the above phrases, this is dealt with with a conjunction (combination of conjunction particle and postposition), but not sure what to put as a direct object in the first main clause.
"I saw ...? since/once the cake had been eaten by someone(someone had eaten the cake)"

I'll give it some thought and come back to this.
Tell a lie, a clause can become an object. What can't be done is a tensed verb in a relative clause. There is no complementiser like "that".
So...

Alahithian
Om hesirk savot ex mawka pa kexet.
1s see-PST person some eat-PST-IMPRF
I saw that someone was eating the cake.

Om hesirk savot ex mawko pa kexet.
1s see-PST person some eat-PST-PRF
I saw that someone had eaten the cake.

Om hesirt savot ex mawta pa kexet.
1s see-PRS person some eat-PRS-IMPRF
I see that someone is eating the cake.

Om hesirt savot ex mawto pa kexet.
1s see-PRS person some eat-PRS-PRF
I see that someone has eaten the cake.

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Re: Relative tense

Post by Lao Kou » 12 Apr 2016 11:42

Image Japoné語

私 oué, j'ga 見ta que qui ca ga 食bététa le gâteau.
Ouétachi oué, j'ga mita que qui ca ga tabététa le gâteau.
[weˈtæʃi we ʒgɔ ˈmɪtɔ kœ̈ ki kɔ gɔ ˈtabeˌtetɔl gɔˈto]
1SG TOP, 1SG SUBJ see-PAST CONJ someone SUBJ eat-PROGPAST DEF.m cake.m
I saw that someone was eating the cake.

私 oué, j'ga 見ta que qui ca ga 食béta 既 ni le gâteau.
Ouétachi oué, j'ga mita que qui ca ga tabéta soudé ni le gâteau.
[weˈtæʃi we ʒgɔ ˈmɪtɔ kœ̈ ki kɔ gɔ ˈtabetɔ sʊde nil gɔˈto]
1SG TOP, 1SG SUBJ see-PAST CONJ someone SUBJ eat-PAST already DEF.m cake.m
I saw that someone had eaten the cake.

私 oué, j'ga 見rë que qui ca ga 食bétèrë le gâteau.
Ouétachi oué, j'ga mirë que qui ca ga tabétèrë le gâteau.
[weˈtæʃi we ʒgɔ ˈmɪi̯ʁœ̈ kœ̈ ki kɔ gɔ tabetæɛ̯ʁœ̈l gɔˈto]
1SG TOP, 1SG SUBJ see-PRES CONJ someone SUBJ eat-PROGPRES DEF.m cake.m
I see that someone is eating the cake.

私 oué, j'ga 見rë que qui ca ga 食bèrë 既 ni le gâteau.
Ouétachi oué, j'ga mirë que qui ca ga tabèrë soudé ni le gâteau.
[weˈtæʃi we ʒgɔ ˈmɪi̯ʁœ̈ kœ̈ ki kɔ gɔ taˈbæɛ̯ʁœ̈ sʊde nil gɔˈto]
1SG TOP, 1SG SUBJ see-PRES CONJ someone SUBJ eat-PRES already DEF.m cake.m
I see that someone has eaten the cake.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

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