Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

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Imralu
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Imralu » 15 May 2015 12:00

I just saw that I never did this in

:con: Ngolu

The easiest way would be to place the time and the direct object inside the verb phrase.

ariu bio volu bani uas eji muja xua lokombo texi mo
yesterday want give money NOM.2s.ACS DAT.3s.ICS.DEF initiated.man LOC.3s.INAN.DEF town-AUG CAU.3s.INAN.DEF what
Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

It's perfectly natural to express the direct object outside of the verb phrase too of course, but much less so with the time phrase. Yesterday would have to be expressed as a subordinate clause in that case. Here's probably the most common word order if you insist on separation.

(los) ariu to bio volu ua ie bani eji muja xua lokombo texi mo
ADV yesterday thus want give NOM.2s.ACS ACC.3p.INAN.NSPC money DAT.3s.ICS.DEF initiated.man LOC.3s.INAN.DEF town-LOC CAU.3s.INAN.DEF what
Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by gestaltist » 15 May 2015 13:11

Current revision of proto-Aranian:

Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

Nat sit’i tlat’ana nunugat pt’am xutu fit’anu latu limlimit gaxat?

Code: Select all

N-at       sit’i     tlat'ana nunug-at pt'am xutu fit'anu lat-u      limlimit gax-at?
2.G1-TOP	yesterday why      want-TOP give  man  money   receive-G1 city     be.in-TOP

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Imralu » 16 May 2015 01:26

gestaltist wrote:Current revision of proto-Aranian:

Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

Nat sit’i tlat’ana nunugat pt’am xutu fit’anu latu limlimit gaxat?

Code: Select all

N-at       sit’i     tlat'ana nunug-at pt'am xutu fit'anu lat-u      limlimit gax-at?
2.G1-TOP	yesterday why      want-TOP give  man  money   receive-G1 city     be.in-TOP
What are the ‹t’›s? Ejectives?
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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gestaltist
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by gestaltist » 16 May 2015 20:20

Imralu wrote: What are the ‹t’›s? Ejectives?
Yes. You can find the phonology >here<, but let me give you the pronunciation of that specific example.

First off, It’s Ardanian, I missed a „d“.

Secondly, I have been working some more on verb serialization in proto-Ardanian, and an Ardanian would be perhaps more likely to say:

Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

Nat sit’i tlat’ana nunugat xutu pt’am fit’anu lat limlimit gax?

Code: Select all

N-at       sit’i     tlat'ana nunug-at xutu pt'am fit'anu lat      limlimit gax?
2.G1-TOP	yesterday why      want-TOP man  give  money   receive  city     be.in
Thirdly, the promised pronunciation:
[ˈNat ˈsi̝t’e ˈtla̝t’a̞na ˈnunuχat ˈxutu ˈpt’a̞m ˈfi̝t’a̞nu ˈɬat ˈɬimɬimit ˈɰax?]

You can go to my proto-Ardanian thread if you are curious about its verb serialization shenanigans.

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Nayvela Nuvela » 25 May 2015 03:57

:con: Tekeū

Bātivla čë do čaolan an huhë beilla neëv uše oiçbeluhuùv beliùv?
[ba:tivla t͡ʃeʲ do t͡ʃaolan huheʲ beil:a ne:ʲv uʃe oiçbeluhuʊv oçbeliʊv]
bātivla čë do čaolan an huhë beilla neëv uše oiç-be-lu-hu-ùv oç-be-lu-ùv
money man to city in yesterday during why want-2.NOM-INT-PST-3.ACC give-2.NOM-PERF-3.ACC
Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

In Tekeū, sentence structure is SOV, with prepositional phrases or prepositions being positioned after the object of the phrase they modify (there is no particular reason for any order of prepositional phrases, as long as they come listed directly after the word they are modifying). Direct objects come before indirect objects, and the pronoun is implied within the verb; in Tekeū there are no articles. In addition, no prepositions may be dropped; "give to the man" rather than "give the man", "during yesterday" rather than "yesterday", and so on.
Edit: Separate pronouns are now existent; edited accordingly.
Last edited by Nayvela Nuvela on 26 May 2015 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by kaermana.sidejabr » 25 May 2015 19:49

PTL

ustxr tdinol don uj kif paisas gi lagk qrena ?

"kif" means ‘to him’. I think it's better not to use "the man" for my conlang in this case.
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 25 May 2015 22:52

Nayvela Nuvela wrote::con: Tekeū

Bātivla čë do čaolan an huhë beilla neëv uše oiçbeluhuùv beliùv?
[ba:tivla t͡ʃeʲ do t͡ʃaolan huheʲ beil:a ne:ʲv uʃe oiçbeluhuʊv oçbeliʊv]
bātivla čë do čaolan an huhë beilla neëv uše oiç-be-lu-hu-ùv oç-be-lu-ùv
money man to city in yesterday during why want-2.NOM-INT-PST-3.ACC give-2.NOM-PERF-3.ACC
Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

In Tekeū, sentence structure is SOV, with prepositional phrases or prepositions being positioned after the object of the phrase they modify (there is no particular reason for any order of prepositional phrases, as long as they come listed directly after the word they are modifying). Direct objects come before indirect objects, and the pronoun is implied within the verb; in Tekeū there are neither pronouns nor articles. In addition, no prepositions may be dropped; "give to the man" rather than "give the man", "during yesterday" rather than "yesterday", and so on.
All natural languages have pronouns FYI.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenber ... universals
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Nayvela Nuvela » 26 May 2015 00:31

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
All natural languages have pronouns FYI.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenber ... universals
Ah, alright. To be honest, I've been using a Spanish-like system where the pronouns have been implied in and combined into the verb. I'll allow for separate pronouns, then. Thanks!
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Nortaneous » 28 May 2015 07:49

Imralu wrote:Just want to have a look at constituent order in sentences with lots of things in them.

VERB
SUBJECT
DIRECT OBJECT
INDIRECT OBJECT
LOCATION
TIME
WH-WORD
Amqoli:
Tsu tsqerax chibri bgule me phoshle bzha da nmas ba?
[tsu ˈtsχerax ˈtʃibri ˈbguɫe me ˈpxoʃje bʒa da nmas ba]
2S.M NONF-city-N>V.in money man-POS to Q.INAN BEN yesterday.POS want-3M.A give

Kannow:
Cʼee přerqʼeedna ibylsʼiktat idiw nalét sʼeŗen?
why Q-V+1.LOC-S.NRPST-want-C6.P.SG-C4.D.SG-2S.A NONF.NONP-money-give-C6.DEF DAT man.OBL.SG city

There are enough different tense affixes that you wouldn't specify the time outright unless you really wanted to emphasize it.

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Nortaneous » 31 May 2015 04:48

Insular Kett:
Letakcang sery cencu am lahang ceyeungennan bacc et mengra?
[ˈletɐktsɐŋ ˈseʑy ˈtsendzw‿ɐm lɐˈχaŋ tsɪˈɥuŋɪʰn̥ɐn ˈɓaʰts ɪt ˈmeŋrɐ]
man-DAT money.OBL city LOC yesterday 2S-give-GER=TOP Q from PST-happen-A.PFV

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Darvince » 01 Jun 2015 05:05

:con: Himalian

Luʔ keʔéuht ankenkkhakoltokslagzwvyiivvhéntnakwgdém kithaćpsicalgdém?
luʔ ke=éuht an-n-ke-nk-tha-kol-tok-slagzwvyiivvhéntnwsp-akwg-t-m ki-tha-ćp-sic-alg-t-m
why Q=man 2-3P-Q-DESID-PST-DAT-day_away-money-give-DEL-2HAND SBJV-PST-LOC-city-be-CONT-2HAND

I made keʔéuht blue because Himalian is secundative/dechticaetiative so the direct object becomes man and the indirect object becomes money. Also this is the longest word I've had in Himalian yet (maybe because money is a complex compound)...
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by alynnidalar » 01 Jun 2015 14:31

:con: Tirina

I think the most natural neutral order would be:

Todohiwuparda ife der'ail heka dume ke edir tewa akoima?
MASC-INTERR-give-PST previous day-SG why money DAT man in settlement
Why did you give money to the man in town yesterday?

Subject is dropped--by default, the subjects of interrogative sentences are assumed to be in second person. If it were included it would come after "heka": Todohiwuparda ife der'ail heka yes dume ke edir tewa akoima?

There are several other possible orders, this just seemed the most natural to me. Some other fairly natural orders:

Ife der'ail todohiwuparda heka dume ke edir tewa akoima? (emphasis on the time)
Yesterday, why did you give money to the man in the city?

Tewa akoima todohiwuparda ife der'ail heka dume ke edir? (emphasis on the location)
In the city, why did you give money to the man yesterday?

Or even:

Ife der'ail tewa akoima todohiwuparda heka dume ke edir? (emphasis on the location and time)
In the city yesterday, why did you give money to the man?

Something interesting I don't think I noticed before in Tirina, "heka" must come after the verb, of course, but it also must come after any adverbs modifying the verb as well (excepting any temporal adverbs that have been fronted, obviously). "Todohiwuparda heka ife der'ail" is just awkward.

EDIT: oh, you can switch around the direct and indirect objects too.

Todohiwuparda ife der'ail heka ke edir dume tewa akoima?

This places emphasis on the man, rather than the money.

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by All4Ɇn » 14 Jun 2015 02:50

:con: Îçlo
Perché tu vôlevi dare àl uomon della torratan ĭn la madina hieri?
[pɛrˈxeː t̪u vɨˈl̪eːvi dˤɑːrɛ ɑl̪ ˈwoːmon̪ ˈd̪eːl̪ä t̪oˈrɑːt̪än̪ ən̪ l̪ä mäˈd̪iːn̪ä ˈjeːri]

Words in italics are typically dropped and are only included when stressed

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Sier » 14 Jun 2015 16:48

Vutulkian

The pronouns to be used in the translation below depend on who we are speaking to (a male or a female). There is also a gender-neuter catch-all pronoun (vaan), but here I'm going to assume we're speaking to a male.

[mɪn rʉɪ̯ˈsʉkːʉ hʉlˈvɪhɪr ˈpɛkɪä̯hɪsːʉ ˈrʉɪ̯ ˈmɪnɪs ˈfätɬä hɪnˈmɪnʉ]
Min ruisukku hulovihiru pekiahissu rui minis faya hitaminu?

PERS.2.M.DEC TEMP.PREF+yesterday-DEC LOC.PREF+city-DEC give-OPT+INT.CAUS.SUFF PTCL.PST.IND PERS.2.M.EMP money-DEC DAT.PREF+man-DEC
Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Iyionaku » 02 Feb 2016 18:38

:con: Caelian

Lizwye sitistibeil Zan harlyungez bordyafcek oddalyed sedder?
[lisˈʋɛ ʃitɪʃˈtiːb͡ɛɪl zan haɾʎʊŋˈɛs bɔɾdʲaɸˈʝɛk odaˈʎɛd ʃɛˈdɛɾ]
Why PST-give-SUB.2SG-OBJ.3SG 2SG money.ACC man.DAT city.INN yesterday

Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

:con: Orkish (WT)

Shels graz kralzoks tshennz gerk khekersh xrad ishtiks ptarkuzh remztshek pɦor ptunsuzh.
[ʂɛls gʁaz ˈkʁalzɔks t͡ʃɛnːz gɛrk kʰɛkɛrʂ xrad ˈiʂti͡ks ˈ͡ptarkuʐ ˈrɛmzt͡sɛk pˤɔr ͡ptunsuʐ]
POT NECESS have-2SG.ERG reason.ABS for.that yesterday give want-2SG.ERG man.DAT gold.artificial.ABS in city.DAT

Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

(Literally: You must surely have had a reason so that you wanted to give money to the man in the city yesterday. In Orkish culture, questions are always avoided as it shows weakness, instead there are assumptions made, often with so-called dummy arguments. This is very formal speech: In colloquial speech you would just say: "Graz khekersh xradoks...", "You had to give...", where one could describe the necessative modus particle "graz" equally as question particle.)


:con: Anto

Do man'i ribiri-do wel coko fore je'she ge'mun ge wege?
[tɔː ˈmani ˌɹipiˈɹiːtɔː wɛl ˈt͡ʃʰɔkʰɔ ˈfɔːɹɛ ˈjɛʃɛ kɛˈmʊn kɛ wɛkɛ]
2SG money give-PST-2SG want man for yesterday city in why

Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?
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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Dormouse559 » 02 Feb 2016 19:57

Image Silvish

Parchè tu volevas donâ di argenti a li uónmi denz le czutedi ieri ?
[paˈkɛ ˈto vɔˈlɛːva dɔˈnɛː dɪ̯‿aˈʑã.tɪ̯‿a lɪ ˈo̯õː.mɪ dã.s‿lə ɕʊˈtɛː.ɾɪ ˈiː.ɾɪ]
why 2SG-NOM want-IPF{2SG} give-INF PART-OBL.M money-OBL to DEF-OBL.M man-OBL in DEF-OBL.F city-OBL yesterday
Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Xing » 02 Feb 2016 22:58

:con: Waku

Ko imma a ngo maipa o mwena i mera mwarui i pana wiki?
PFV give ERG 2s money DAT man LOC city why LOC day previous
[ko ˈimʲːa aː ŋoː ˈmʲai̯pʲa oː ˈmˠeːnʲa iː ˈmʲeːra mˠɑˈrui̯ iː ˈpʲaːnʲa ˈɰiːkɨ]

'In the city' seems to me to be more closely linked to the main event in the clause, therefore I've placed it right after the indirect object. The wh-word may also be fronted:

Mwarui ko imma a ngo maipa o mwena i mera i pana wiki?
why PFV give ERG 2s money DAT man LOC city LOC day previous
[ko mˠɑˈrui̯ ˈimʲːa aː ŋoː ˈmʲai̯pʲa oː ˈmˠeːnʲa iː ˈmʲeːra iː ˈpʲaːnʲa ˈɰiːkɨ]

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by G64 » 25 Mar 2016 09:25

VERB
SUBJECT
DIRECT OBJECT
INDIRECT OBJECT
LOCATION
TIME
WH-WORD


:eng:

Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?


:con: Elcuin:
ilai him cerryotono Dac lentanye ennodere Amfarot sanor
il=ai him cerryot-ono Da-c lentan-ye enno-dere Amfar-ot sanor
Q=why you[NOM.sg] money-ACC.pl DET.that_one-DAT.sg give-INF.PRES want-IND.PST.2sg DET.city-LOC yesterday

:ita:
Perché ieri in città (tu) volesti dare dei soldi a quell'uomo ?
perché ieri in città tu vol-esti d-are di-i sold-i a quel-lo uom-o
why yesterday in city you want-IND.PPFV.2sg give-INF.PRES PTV-ART.MASCH.pl money-MASCH.pl to that-MASCH.sg man-MASCH.sg
(the preterite is actually being neglected, now many would use it only in very far in time events, perfective or not)

:lat:
Cur (tu) cuidam nummos heri in urbe dare voluisti?
cur tu cui-dam numm-os heri in urb-e d-are volu-isti
why you[NOM] INDF.PRO.DAT.sg-certain_person coin-ACC.pl yesterday in city-ABL give.PRES-INF.ACT want.PERF-IND.PRES.2sg
(I'm unsure about this gloss... [:S])
Native: :ita: | Intermediate: :eng: | Basic: :lat: :esp:
Studied: :qya: (+all of the above)
Willing to study: :grc: :jpn: :heb: :rus:

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Lao Kou » 23 Apr 2016 08:13

Image Japoné語

君 oué pourquoé tu ga 欲cchita 与èrë du 金 au l'男 nie 昨日 dans la 都市 dé ca?
Quimi oué pourquoé tu ga hocchita ataèrë du cané au l'hotôcau nie saquëdjitsë dans la tauchie dé ca?
[ˈkɪmi we pʊu̯ʁˈkwe t͡sy gɔ ˈɔʃ.ʃi̥tɔ ataˈæɛ̯ʁœ̈ d͡zy ˈkane au ˈlɔtoko ni ˈsakœ̈ˈdʒɪt͡sœ̈ dã la ˈtoʃi de kɔ]
2SG TOP why 2SG SUBJ want-PAST give PART.m money.m OBJ DEF.m man.m DAT yesterday in DEF.f city.f LOC Q
Why did you want to give the man money in the city yesterday?
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

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Re: Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday?

Post by Iyionaku » 23 Apr 2016 12:08

:con: Paatherye

Speaking to a woman:

क्राति थु तिल्पेज़ दू में वीरज़्तुड़ कीलियण थूसेण ऊति मोतयु?
Krāti thū tilpes dū mem vīrastur kīliyan thūsen ūti mētayu?

[ˈkraːti tʰuː ˈtilpes ðuː mem viːˈrastur kiːˈli.an ˈtʰuːsen ˈuːti ˈmeːtaju]

Speaking to a man:
क्राति यो तिल्पेज़ दू में वीरज़्तुड़ कीलियण थूसेण ऊति मोतयु?
Krāti yē tilpes dū mem vīrastur kīliyan thūsen ūti mētayu?

[ˈkraːt joː ˈtɪlpət͡s duː ˈməm viːˈrastʊr kiːˈlian ˈtʰuːsən ˈuːt ˈmotaj]

why 2SG.NOM get.2SG give.PP DEF.MASC.DAT man.DAT money.PL.ACC yesterday in city.LOC

Why did you give the man money in the city yesterday
Wipe the glass. This is the usual way to start, even in the days, day and night, only a happy one.

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