"Give" problems

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k1234567890y
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"Give" problems

Post by k1234567890y » 19 Apr 2015 23:05

how do you translate the following senteces:

- I gave you a fruit
- You(singular) gave me a fruit
- I gave him/her a fruit
- he/she gave me a fruit
- you(singular) gave him/her a fruit
- he/she gave you(singular) a fruit
- Ha gave Hb a fruit(suppose that you are a relative or a friend of Ha but you don't have any relationship with Hb)
- Hb gave Ha a fruit(suppose that you are a relative or a friend of Ha but you don't have any relationship with Hb)

Notes:
Spoiler:
Note that in some languages like Japanese, there are different words for "give", and the use of these verbs depends on the relationship between the giver, the recipient and the speaker, it is said that in Japanese, あげる is used when the relationship between the speaker and the giver is closer, and くれる is used when the relationship between the speaker and the receiver is closer, the hierarchy is "1st person > 2nd person > 3rd person", and when the ; also there are some languages in which the recipients of ditransitive verbs are treated like the patients of monotransitive verbs and the themes get distinct marking, these languages are called "secundative languages"; moreover, in some languages, like English, there are more than one way to mark the receiver, as the sentences "Ha gave Hb a fruit" and "Ha gave a fruit to Hb".
--------

Translations:

:con: Lonmai Luna

Romanization: se dorpa kat hi-les cede / se dorpa hi-les cede ili kat
Interlinear: 1.PRON give 2.SG one-CLF fruit / 1.PRON give one-CLF fruit to 2.SG
English translation: I gave you a fruit

Romanization: kat dorpa se hi-les cede / kat dorpa hi-les cede ili alen se
Interlinear: 2.PRON give 1.SG one-CLF fruit / 2.PRON give one-CLF fruit to 1.SG
English translation: You(singular) gave me a fruit

Romanization: se dorpa dala hi-les cede / se dorpa hi-les cede ili dala
Interlinear: 1.PRON give 3.SG one-CLF fruit / 1.PRON give one-CLF fruit to 3.SG
English translation: I gave you a fruit

Romanization: dala dorpa se hi-les cede / dala dorpa hi-les cede ili alen se
Interlinear: 3.PRON give 1.SG one-CLF fruit / 3.PRON give one-CLF fruit to 1.SG
English translation: he/she gave me a fruit

Romanization: kat dorpa dala hi-les cede / kat dorpa hi-les cede ili alen dala
Interlinear: 2.PRON give 3.SG one-CLF fruit / 2.PRON give one-CLF fruit to 3.SG
English translation: you(singular) gave him/her a fruit

Romanization: dala dorpa kat hi-les cede / dala dorpa hi-les cede ili alen kat
Interlinear: 3.PRON give 2.SG one-CLF fruit / 3.PRON give one-CLF fruit to 2.SG
English translation: he/she gave you(singular) a fruit

Romanization: alen Ha dorpa alen Hb hi-les cede / alen Ha dorpa hi-les cede ili alen Hb
Interlinear: PND Ha give PND Hb one-CLF fruit / PND Ha give one-CLF fruit to PND Hb
English translation: Ha gave Hb a fruit(suppose that you are a relative or a friend of Ha but you don't have any relationship with Hb)

Romanization: alen Hb dorpa alen Ha hi-les cede / alen Hb dorpa hi-les cede ili alen Ha
Interlinear: PND Hb give PND Ha one-CLF fruit / PND Hb give one-CLF fruit to PND Ha
English translation: Hb gave Ha a fruit(suppose that you are a relative or a friend of Ha but you don't have any relationship with Hb)

other languages will be posted in the replies of this thread later
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.

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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Runomso » 04 May 2015 18:52

Ukiku doesn't do anything with the verb itself but with pronouns because it always tries to avoid 2nd and 3rd person if they are the object (if they are subject, it works as suffix added to the verb). It usually replaces the object pronoun for "you" (Sg&Pl) with a title while there are added titles to 3rd ps. pronouns.
It also drops personal verb suffixes if they are given by the context so that the bare stem remains.
Here are some titles:
gatyu = gender & reputation neutral title (compare jap. "san"), the most common title
yaséi = title of a friend or relative, used for 2nd and 3rd ps.
ohiru = used for a person you do not know, only if you talk of them as 3rd ps. (so not really a "title")

dane núrime gatyu ro
to give 1SG fruit AKK gatyu (instead of "you") ro = in past
I gave you a fruit

dansa núrime di ro
to give 2SG fruit AKK I AKK/DAT in past
You(Sg) gave me a fruit

dane núrime so-gatyu ro
to give 1SG fruit AKK he/she-gatyu AKK/DAT in past
I gave him/her a fruit

danvu núrime di ro
to give 3SG fruit AKK I AKK/DAT in past
He/she gave me a fruit

dansa núrime so-gatyu ro
to give 2SG fruit AKK he/she AKK/DAT-gatyu in past
you(singular) gave him/her a fruit

danvu núrime gatyu ro
to give 2SG fruit AKK gatyu (instead of "you") in past
he/she gave you(singular) a fruit

dan núrime Hb-ohiru-ku Ha-yaséi
to give (suffix dropped) fruit AKK Hb-ohiru DAT Ha-yaséi NOM
Ha gave Hb a fruit(suppose that you are a relative or a friend of Ha but you don't have any relationship with Hb)

dan núrime Ha-yaséi-ku Hb-ohiru
to give (suffix dropped) fruit AKK Ha-yaséi DAT Hb-ohiru NOM
Hb gave Ha a fruit(suppose that you are a relative or a friend of Ha but you don't have any relationship with Hb)
native: German
know good: English
learning: Spanish
interested in: Japanese

My conlang: Ukiku

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kanejam
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by kanejam » 07 May 2015 13:19

:con: Savvinic:

In Savvinic, you can't say 'a fruit', so I've used 'a piece of fruit'.

Tai runattai ai kkarruf fruttus
I gave you (sing.) a piece of fruit

Mai runattai ai kkarruf fruttus
You (sing.) gave me a piece of fruit

Ṡi ddunattun ai kkarruf fruttus
I gave him/her a piece of fruit

Mai runattas kkarruf fruttus
He/she gave me a piece of fruit

Ṡi ddunattai ai kkarruf fruttus
You (sing.) gave him/her a piece of fruit

Tai runattas ai kkarruf fruttus
He/she gave you(singular) a piece of fruit

Bait runattas Jaccum ai kkarruf fruttus
Bait gave Jaccum a piece of fruit

The last would be the same, regardless of the relationship of the speaker to Bait or Jaccum. However, it would make a distinction for a formal you and an informal you (not sure what that would be yet, but it would be along the lines of Spanish Usted). Also, all of these (but the last) have a dropped subject.

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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Lao Kou » 07 May 2015 15:35

Image Géarthnuns

Sí lé öçkek sö nelöbsöt gamez.
1SG-NOM AUX.PAST 2SG-DAT INDEF fruit-ACC give
I gave you a fruit.

Öçek lé sík sö nelöbsöt gamez.
2SG-NOM AUX.PAST 1SG-DAT INDEF fruit-ACC give
You gave me a fruit.

Sí lé saurauk sö nelöbsöt gamez.
1SG-NOM AUX.PAST 3SG-DAT INDEF fruit-ACC give
I gave him/her a fruit.

Saur lé sík sö nelöbsöt gamez.
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST 1SG-DAT INDEF fruit-ACC give
S/he gave me a fruit.

Öçek lé saurauk sö nelöbsöt gamez.
2SG-NOM AUX.PAST 3SG-DAT INDEF fruit-ACC give
You gave him/her a fruit.

Saur lé öçkek sö nelöbsöt gamez.
3SG-NOM AUX.PAST 2SG-DAT INDEF fruit-ACC give
S/he gave you a fruit.

Habauths lé Hbíbauthsek sö nelöbsöt gamez.
Ha-NOM AUX.PAST Hb-DAT INDEF fruit-ACC give
Ha gave Hb a fruit.

Decidedly uneventful. However, there has been some rub-off from the uppy-downy hierarchy of Japanese giving which pops up in other vocabulary such as "gift", "inherit", and "extradite".
Last edited by Lao Kou on 26 Mar 2016 15:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Squall » 09 May 2015 20:47

:con: Xioran
That distinction does not exist in the conlang and the syntax is always the same.
The language does not have a word for 'fruit', it has a word for 'piece of fruit' instead.

- I gave you a piece of fruit.
Min donoy ax tu uyn fumela.
1SG give-PST DAT 2SG one fruit.

- I gave you all a piece of fruit.
Min donoy ax vu uyn fumela. [Only one unit to be shared with everyone.]
1SG give-PST DAT 2PL one fruit.

- I gave each of you a piece of fruit.
Min donoy ax txay vu uyn fumela. [Each one receives a unit.]
1SG give-PST DAT PART 2PL one fruit.
English is not my native language. Sorry for any mistakes or lack of knowledge when I discuss this language.
:bra: :mrgreen: | :uk: [:D] | :esp: [:)] | :epo: [:|] | :lat: [:S] | :jpn: [:'(]

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Imralu
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Imralu » 10 May 2015 15:15

Ngolu:

I won't bother with TAM marking because it's non-obligatory and generally only used when context is not enough.

In Ngolu, the definite and specific indefinite animate nominals (pronouns/articles) used depend on the relationship to the listener in the 1st person, and to the speaker in the 2nd and 3rd persons. Accessible nominals indicate that the referent may be touched by the speaker (or, in the first person, by the listener. Inaccessible indicates that the referent may not be touched. In dealings between the first and second persons, there are essentially four speech modes, accessible [ACS] (used between people who are close and may touch each other), inaccessible [ICS] (shows distance, no touching is appropriate), dominant [DOM] (I may touch you but you may not touch me), and submissive (you may touch me but I may not touch you). Third person referents are referred to by their accessibility to the speaker, not to the listener.

Also, I can't bring myself to accept "fruit" as a countable noun in English. To me, it sounds as weird as "a bread".

I gave you a piece of fruit

  • volu nas eue zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ACS DAT.2s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave you a piece of fruit. [ACS] (We may touch each other.)

    volu nu eui zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ICS DAT.2s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave you a piece of fruit. [ICS] (We may not touch each other.)

    volu nu eue zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ICS DAT.2s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave you a piece of fruit. [DOM] (I may touch you, but you may not touch me.)

    volu nas eui zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ACS DAT.2s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave you a piece of fruit. (You may touch me, but I may not touch you.)


You(singular) gave me a piece of fruit

  • volu uas ene zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ACS DAT.1s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave me a piece of fruit. [ACS] (We may touch each other.)

    volu vu eni zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ICS DAT.1s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave me a piece of fruit. [ICS] (We may not touch each other.)

    volu uas eni zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ACS DAT.1s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave me a piece of fruit. [DOM] (I may touch you, but you may not touch me.)

    volu vu ene zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ICS DAT.1s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave me a piece of fruit.
(You may touch me, but I may not touch you.)

I gave him/her a piece of fruit

  • volu nas eje zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ACS DAT.3s.ACS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ACS/SUB] (I may touch him/her. You may touch me.)

    volu nas eji zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ACS DAT.3s.ICS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ACS/SUB] (I may not touch him her. You may touch me.)

    volu nu eje zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ICS DAT.3s.ACS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ICS/DOM] (I may touch him/her. You may not touch me.)

    volu nu eji zi luba
    give NOM.1s.ICS DAT.3s.ACS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    I gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ICS/DOM] (I may not touch him her. You may not touch me.)


he/she gave me a piece of fruit

  • volu jas ene zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ACS.DEF DAT.1s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave me a piece of fruit. [ACS/SUB] (I may touch him/her. You may touch me.)

    volu ju ene zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ICS.DEF DAT.1s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave me a piece of fruit. [ACS/SUB] (I may not touch him/her. You may touch me.)

    volu jas eni zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ACS.DEF DAT.1s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave me a piece of fruit. [ICS/DOM] (I may touch him/her. You may not touch me.)

    volu ju eni zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ICS.DEF DAT.1s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave me a piece of fruit. [ICS/DOM] (I may not touch him/her. You may not touch me.)


you(singular) gave him/her a piece of fruit

  • volu uas eje zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ACS DAT.3s.ACS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ACS/DOM] (I may touch you and him/her.)

    volu uas eji zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ACS DAT.3s.ICS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ACS/DOM] (I may touch you, but not him/her.)

    volu vu eje zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ICS DAT.3s.ACS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ICS/SUB] (I may touch him/her, but not you.)

    volu vu eji zi luba
    give NOM.2s.ICS DAT.3s.ICS.DEF ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    You gave him/her a piece of fruit. [ICS/SUB] (I may not touch you or him/her.)


he/she gave you(singular) a piece of fruit

  • volu jas eue zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ACS.DEF DAT.2s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave you a piece of fruit. [ACS/DOM] (I may touch you and him/her.)

    volu ju eue zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ICS.DEF DAT.2s.ACS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave you a piece of fruit. [ACS/DOM] (I may touch you, but not him/her.)

    volu jas eui zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ACS.DEF DAT.2s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave you a piece of fruit. [ICS/SUB] (I may touch him/her, but not you.)

    volu ju eui zi luba
    give NOM.3s.ICS.DEF DAT.2s.ICS ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit
    S/He gave you a piece of fruit. [ICS/SUB] (I may not touch you or him/her.)


Huxu gave Ailaiti a piece of fruit.

  • volu ja huxu zi lubas ejes ailaiti
    give NOM.3s.ACS.DEF wind ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit DAT.3s.ACS.DEF ≈moon-small
    Huxu gave Ailaiti a piece of fruit. (I may touch both of them.)

    volu ja huxu zi lubas eji ailaiti
    give NOM.3s.ACS.DEF wind ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit DAT.3s.ICS.DEF ≈moon-small
    Huxu gave Ailaiti a piece of fruit. (I may touch Huxu but not Ailaiti.)

    volu ju huxu zi lubas ejes ailaiti
    give NOM.3s.ICS.DEF wind ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit DAT.3s.ACS.DEF ≈moon-small
    Huxu gave Ailaiti a piece of fruit. (I may touch Ailaiti but not Huxu.)

    volu ju huxu zi lubas eji ailaiti
    give NOM.3s.ICS.DEF wind ACC.3s.INAN.SPEC fruit DAT.3s.ICS.DEF ≈moon-small
    Huxu gave Ailaiti a piece of fruit. (I may not touch either of them.)
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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GrandPiano
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by GrandPiano » 10 May 2015 22:23

:zho: Mandarin (simplified characters):

我给你一个水果。
1s give 2s one CL fruit
I gave you a fruit.

你给我一个水果。
2s give 1s one CL fruit
You gave me a fruit.

我给他/她一个水果。
1s give 3ms/3fs one CL fruit
I gave him/her a fruit.

他/她给我一个水果。
3ms/3fs give 1s one CL fruit
He/she gave me a fruit.

你给他/她一个水果。
2s give 3ms/3fs one CL fruit
You gave him/her a fruit.

他/她给你一个水果。
3ms/3fs give 2s one CL fruit
He/she gave you a fruit.

Ha给Hb一个水果。
Ha give Hb one CL fruit
Ha gave Hb a fruit.

Ha给Hb一个水果。
Ha give Hb one CL fruit
Ha gave Hb a fruit.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

kaleissin
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by kaleissin » 17 May 2015 18:23

I've substitued "cup" for "fruit", dunno any word for fruit (yet). You're not specifying whether you without singular is singular or plural so I'll assume singular throughout. There's a TAM suffix-complex on the verbs but they're restricted in use, and unsuitable for a situation such as this.

give, ditransitive, with implicit 1st person pronoun agent
ū 2.SG.A
us, ūið 2.SG.BEN, high and low register
fōaþ fō-aþ cup-P
saðhe, sāið 1.SG.BEN, high and low register
ī 3.SG.animate.A
ys, īið 3.SG.animate.BEN, high and low register

So the main interesting difference is between 1st person as subject and anything else as subject:

rī us/ūið/ys/ūið fōaþ

vs.

ū/ī rī saðhe/sāið fōaþ

Minimally, on its own means "I/we give something (inanimate) to someone (animate)".

... and I'm not showing more than that because Taruven is free word order and copy pasting N x M word order variations is boring to do and boring to read.

Possibly more interesting, an inanimate cannot be an agent in Taruven, that is: cannot be in an unmarked noun phrase of a transitive, ditransitive or complemented verb. Neither can they be marked for the benefactive.

Btw: Is there a standard for 3rd person pronoun, gender unknown, in English on the current CBB? Couldn't find anything about it...

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Darvince
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Darvince » 18 May 2015 07:05

:con: Himalian (Proto-Himalo-Auspik)

The only real exciting thing that happens in this is that Tsakon is given third person proximate since he's the friend of the "I" in this situation (Ha was replaced with Tsakon, and Hb was replaced with Fnakto). Also, seeing a three word clause is pretty unusual in Himalian if there's no possessive structure in the sentence, but it occurs here as the dative applicative for Fnakto and Tsakon kicks out the direct object of the sentence. I've decided to capitalize the verb rather than the name in the instances where the name is incorporated.

I gave you a fruit.
Pii pakthakolwlakwgaj.
pii pa-k-tha-kol-wl-akwg-a-j
fruit 1EXCL-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-2-give-PRFV-1HAND

You gave me a fruit.
Pii ankthakolvakwgaj.
pii an-k-tha-kol-p-akwg-a-j
fruit 2-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-1EXCL-give-PRFV-1HAND

I gave him a fruit.
Pii pakthakolnakwgaj.
pii pa-k-tha-kol-n-akwg-a-j
fruit 1-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-3P-give-PRFV-1HAND

He gave me a fruit.
Pii ikthakolvakwgaj.
pii i-k-tha-kol-v-akwg-a-j
fruit 3P-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-1-give-PRFV-1HAND

You gave him a fruit.
Pii ankthakolnakwgaj.
pii an-k-tha-kol-p-akwg-a-j
fruit 2-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-3P-give-PRFV-1HAND

He gave you a fruit.
Pii ikthakolwlakwgaj.
pii i-wl-tha-kol-p-akwg-a-j
fruit 3P-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-2-give-PRFV-1HAND

Tsakon gave Fnakto a fruit.
Tsakon pii Ikthakolfnaktakwgaj.
tsakon pii i-k-tha-kol-Fnakto-akwg-a-j
NAME fruit 3P-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-NAME-give-PRFV-1HAND

Fnakto gave Tsakon a fruit.
Fnakto pii Pëkkthakoltsakonakwgaj.
fnakto pii pék-k-tha-kol-Tsakon-akwg-a-j
NAME fruit 3O-3O-PST-APPL;DAT-NAME-give-PRFV-1HAND
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Artaxes
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Artaxes » 17 Mar 2019 16:08

Me tur phátsim gúdnat.
[ I thou-DAT fruit-ACC MASC-give-PST-PERF]
[me tur pʰát͡sim gúd]
I gave you a fruit.

Tu mer phátsim gúdnat.
[Thou I-DAT fruit-ACC MASC-give-PST-PERF]
[tu mer pʰát͡sim gúdnat]
You gave me a fruit.

Me hanar phátsim gúdnat.
[ I 3.SG.PERS.PRON-DAT fruit-ACC MASC-give-PST-PERF]
[me hanar pʰát͡sim gúdnat]
I gave him a fruit.

Han mer phátsim gúdnat.
[3.SG.PERS.PRON I-DAT fruit-ACC MASC-give-PST-PERF]
[han mer pʰát͡sim gúdnat]
He gave me a fruit.

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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Iyionaku » 30 Oct 2019 10:55

Yélian is pretty boring in that aspect.

Pès sat yidasai cletye.
[pɛs sɐt ɕɨˈdaːsaɪ̯ ˈkletʃə]
towards 2SG.OBL PST-give-1SG fruit
I gave you a fruit.

Pès rat yidasei cletye.
[pɛs rɐt ɕɨˈdaːsɛɪ̯ ˈkletʃə]
towards 1SG.OBL PST-give-2SG fruit
You gave me a fruit.
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Re: "Give" problems

Post by Reyzadren » 30 Oct 2019 12:15

:con: griuskant (without the conscript)

aesk zaefa snug ki ost.
/'esk 'zˤefa 'snug ki 'ɔst/
1SG give-V fruit to 2SG
I gave you a fruit.

ost zaefa snug ki aesk.
/'ɔst 'zˤefa 'snug ki 'esk/
2SG give-V fruit to 1SG
You(singular) gave me a fruit.
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