One too many

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Dormouse559
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One too many

Post by Dormouse559 » 01 Oct 2019 20:08

How does your language communicate an excess? How does it quantify that excess? Feel free to replace "apple/centimeter/kilometer" with conculture-appropriate terms.

1a. I have too many apples.

1b. I have one too many apples / one apple too many.

2a. I am too tall.

2b. I am one centimeter too tall.

3a. I ran too far.

3b. I ran one kilometer too far.




Image Silvish

1a. J' ê tro de bomma.
[ʒɛˈtʁo de.bɔ̃ˈma]
1S.NOM have.1S too_many of apple

I have too many apples.

1b. J' ê-y in bomma de tro.
[ʒɛː.jɛ̃m.bɔ̃ˈma dəˈtʁo]
1S.NOM have.1S one.M.C apple of too_many

I have one too many apples / one apple too many.

2a. Jo sû tro gran/grànta.
[ʒo.syː.tʁəˈgʁɑ̃ŋ | …ˈgʁɑ̃n.tə]
1S.NOM be.1S too tall.M.N/tall.F.N

I am too tall.

2b. Jo sû-y in chantimêtrou de tro (gran).
[ʒo.syː.jɛ̃n̠.ʃɑ̃n.tiˈmɛː.tʁu dəˈtʁo | de.tʁəˈgʁɑ̃ŋ]
1S.NOM be.1S INDEF.M.C centimeter of too (tall.M.C)

I am one centimeter too tall.

3a. J' ê courru tro-t lwi.
[ʒɛː.kuˈʁy tʁəˈtlɥi]
1S.NOM have.1S run-PST_PTCP too far

I ran too far.

3b. J' ê courru in quilomêtrou de tro(-t lwi).
[ʒɛː.kuˈʁy ʔɛ̃ŋ.kiləˈmɛː.tʁu dəˈtʁo | de.tʁəˈtlɥi]
1S.NOM have.1S run-PST_PTCP INDEF.M.C kilometer of too (far)

I ran one kilometer too far.

Notes:
  • In all three sentences where the excess is unquantified, Silvish puts tro "too (much/many)" before the modified word. To quantify the excess, it puts the quantity first, followed by linking preposition de and then tro.
  • When quantifying adjectival/adverbial excesses, the actual adjective or adverb can be dropped if doing so won't lead to ambiguity. In 2b, gran, is unlikely to be dropped, while 3b's lwi is quite likely to.
  • Another complication is that de, when used as a linking preposition, blocks adjective agreement, so a speaker who takes feminine agreement would say 2a as, "Jo sû tro grànta", with a feminine ending on gran "tall". But they would say 2b as "Jo sû-y in chantimêtrou de tro gran", with gran in its unmarked form.

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Reyzadren
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Re: One too many

Post by Reyzadren » 01 Oct 2019 23:34

:con: griuskant (without the conscript)

aesk reca ilzis is isaem.
/'esk 'rətʃa 'ilzˤis 'is 'isem/
1SG have-V very-A-PL A-PL "apple"
1a. I have too many isaem.

aesk reca boskil 1 isaem.
/'esk 'rətʃa 'bɔskil 'rusk 'isem/
1SG have-V accidently-more 1 "apple"
1b. I have one too many isaem / one isaem too many.
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Re: One too many

Post by Iyionaku » 04 Oct 2019 10:12

Oh boy, finally a new translation challenge that is fun and quick!

:con: Yélian

1a) Re bai sæfanutlocan.
[ɾe baɪ̯ ˈsœɸɐnʉtˌloːkɐn]
1SG have-1SG apple.PL-too-many
I have too many apples.

1b) Utlocbai sæfemi mia.
[ʉtloˈbaɪ̯ ˈsœɸəmi ˈmi.ɐ]
too-many-have-1SG apple-ENUM one
I have one apple too many.

2a): Re utlotabai.
[ɾe ʉtˈloːtɐbaɪ̯]
1SG too-tall-COP.1SG
I am too tall.

2b): Utlotabai centimètri mia.
[ʉtˈloːtɐbaɪ̯ kəntɨˈmɛtɾi ˈmi.ɐ]
too-tall-COP.1SG centimeter-ENUM one
I am one centimeter too tall.

3a): Re yiutfeanpalpai.
[ɾe ʃɪ̯ʉˌteː.ɐnˈpalpaɪ̯]
1SG PST-too-far-run-1SG
I ran too far.

3b): Kilomètri'm yiutfeanpalpai.
[kɨlɔ̈ˈmɛtɾɨm ʃɪ̯ˌteː.ɐnˈpalpaɪ̯]
kilometer-ENUM-one PST-too-far-run-1SG
I ran one kilometer too far.
Spoiler:
A few grammar notes:

1a): Normally, nouns ending on the classifier -locan "many" don't show morphological plural, as it's only displayed at the end of the noun (which the classifier is a part of) and the plural of locan is syncretic to the singular due to the ending -an, which is replaced by -an. However, the ending -em of sæfem "apple" is also replaced by -an, and if a noun doesn't form his plural agglutinatively it is displayed directly at the noun. This is called "double plural" (canyetprenet) in Yélian grammar.

1b): Note that "many" is one of the few words that have alternating forms depending on if they are suffixed to a noun, or prefixed to a verb. The noun form is locan-, the verb form is loc-.

Another visible difference is the usage of the personal pronoun re. Usually Yélian is pro-drop, but with one-syllable verbs like biyla "to have", it is common to include the pronoun for better prosody. Similar applies to 2a) and 3a): If a sentence would otherwise consist of only one word, you include the personal pronoun.

Don't be confused by the repeated usage of bai in 1) and 2): it is the 1sg form of both balia (to be) and biyla (to have). It also means "yes" - quite a versatile little word! However, there is a difference and you might have already spotted it: If -bai comes from "balia", it is not stressed and instead the penultimate syllable of the classifier is stressed, but if it comes from "biyla", it actually bears the main stress.

Regarding word order in 2b) and 3b): It's free in this case, depending on what you want to emphasize. However, the colloquial shortening of "<noun>-i mia" to "<noun>-im" is not possible at the end of the sentence.
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Re: One too many

Post by Iyionaku » 04 Oct 2019 10:31

:con: Caelian

1a) Rar fasafokyam mak özëng beryäi.
[rah βaʒaβɔˈkʲam mak œˈzəŋ bɛɾˈjæɪ̯]
1SG.NOM apple.PL.POSS INDEF.FEM.POSS too=many COP.1SG>3PL
I have too many apples.

1b) Rar fasfokyam mak özëng byäi.
[rah βaʃβɔˈkʲam mak œˈzəŋ bʲæɪ̯]
1SG.NOM apple.POSS INDEF.FEM.POSS too=many COP.1SG>3SG
I have one apple too many.

2a) Rar lüdvos öz byu.
[rah lydˈvɔʃ œs bʲu]
1SG.NOM big.MASC too COP.1SG
I am too tall.

2b) Rar zitmot megjë lüdvos öz byäi.
[rah zɛtˈmɔt mɛˈgʲə lydˈvɔʃ œs bʲæɪ̯]
1SG.NOM centimeter.INST one big.MASC too COP.1SG
I am one centimeter too tall.

3a) Rar vpejnan öz sizüpraw.
[rah p̪ɛjˈnan œs ʒizypˈraʊ̯]
1SG.NOM far too PST-run.1SG
I ran too far.

3b) Rar kilmot megjë vpejnan öz sizüpriw.
[rah kʰilˈmɔt mɛˈgʲə p̪ɛjˈnan œs ʒizypˈriʊ̯]
1SG.NOM kilometer.INST one far too PST-run.1SG>3SG
I ran one kilometer too far.
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Re: One too many

Post by Void » 04 Oct 2019 13:03

:con: Rjimâya / რძიმჷჲა

1a. Zhixinzûryâm arfâqʼ.
ზჰიხინზჳრჲჷმ არჶჷყ ჻჻
[shɪxɪnˈzuːrjaːm ˈarɸaːqʼ]
1SG-PRS-have-apple too
I have too many apples.

1b. Zhixinzûryâm arfâqʼ xoccan.
ზჰიხინზჳრჲჷმ არჶჷყ ხოცცან ჻჻
[shɪxɪnˈzuːrjaːm ˈarɸaːqʼ ˈxɔtsːan̥]
1SG-PRS-have-apple too one-INST
I have one too many apples / one apple too many.

2a. Zar arfâqʼ baljar.
ზარ არჶჷყ ბალძარ ჻჻
[zar ˈarɸaːqʼ ˈbaɫdzar̥]
1SG-PRS-be too tall
I am too tall.

2b. Zar arfâqʼ baljar xoc pʼxulʒʒan.
ზარ არჶჷყ ბალძარ ხოც პხულჯჯან ჻჻
[zar ˈarɸaːqʼ ˈbaɫdzar̥ xɔts ˈpʼxuldʒːan̥]
1SG-PRS-be too tall one finger-INST
I am one inch too tall.

3a. Zalgawin arfâqʼ apʼ.
ზალღავინ არჶჷყ აპ ჻჻
[ˈzaɫɣawɪn ˈarɸaqːʼ apʼ]
1SG-run-PST too far
I ran too far.

3b. Zalgawin arfâqʼ apʼ xoc fasuxxan.
ზალღავინ არჶჷყ აპ ხოც ფასუხხან ჻჻
[ˈzaɫɣawɪn ˈarɸaqːʼ apʼ xɔts ɸaˈsuxːan̥]
1SG-run-PST too far one league-INST
I ran one league too far.
Rjimâyin

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Re: One too many

Post by Iyionaku » 07 Oct 2019 09:49

Void wrote:
04 Oct 2019 13:03
Rjimâya / რძიმჷჲა
A conlang that's using the Armenian alphabet? I [<3] :)

:con: Paatherye

Elfish uses a special "excessive" form of adjectives.

१क: शोकु यज़ षुबि शैपेल़.
1k) Ēku yas șubi aypelan.
1SG.NOM have.1SG many.EXC.PL.ACC apple.PL.ACC
I have too many apples.

१त: शोकु यज़ शोज़ षुबु ठो शापेऌ.
1t) Ēku yas ēs șubu thē āpel.
1SG.NOM have.1SG COP.3SG.INAN many.EXC REL.INAN.MASC.ACC apple.ACC
I have one apple (that is) too much.

२क: शोकु पै त्वे़दु.
2k) Ēku pay twendu.
1SG.NOM COP.1SG large.EXC
I am too tall.

२त: शोकु पै सै नूरपुये त्वे़दु.
2t) Ēku pay say nūrpuye twendu.
1SG.NOM COP.1SG INDEF.FEM.LOC ear_tip.LOC large.EXC
I'm one tip of the ear too tall.

३क: शोकु प्रीपि फालैदु.
3k) Ēku prīpī phālaydu.
1SG.NOM run.IPF.1SG far.ADV.EXC
I ran too far.

३त: शोकु प्रीपि फालैदु.
3k) Ēku prīpī cāra hājer phālaydu.
1SG.NOM run.IPF.1SG four mile.PL.LOC far.ADV.EXC
I ran four miles too far.
Spoiler:
New words for this challenge

नूरपु nūrpu - 1.57 cm (literally "tip of an ear")
Etymology: From nūșa "ear" + ūpu "summit", rhotacism from ș to r

हाजे hāje - quarter of a mile (about 433 m)
Etymology: From hājar "a thousand"
Last edited by Iyionaku on 14 Oct 2019 09:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: One too many

Post by Void » 12 Oct 2019 02:01

Iyionaku wrote:
07 Oct 2019 09:49
Void wrote:
04 Oct 2019 13:03
Rjimâya / რძიმჷჲა
A conlang that's using the Armenian alphabet? I [<3] :)
Oh man, I love Armenian, but that's Georgian I'm using.

:arm:

Ես ունենում չափից շատ խնձոր եմ։
Yes unenum č'ap'ic' šat xnjor em.
[jɛs unɛˈnum ʃɑt lɑv χənˌdzɔˈɾ‿ɛm]
1SG have-PRS.PTCPL too much apple be-1SG.PRS
"I have too many apples."
Rjimâyin

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Re: One too many

Post by lsd » 12 Oct 2019 14:16

I do not have "too " in Tonaakereowhenua...
these sentences are not translatable without adding the goal that can not be achieved...
except to translate it by "very"...

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Re: One too many

Post by Dormouse559 » 12 Oct 2019 19:26

I have been slacking on responding to posts. Let's fix that:
Reyzadren wrote:
01 Oct 2019 23:34
aesk reca boskil 1 isaem.
/'esk 'rətʃa 'bɔskil 'rusk 'isem/
1SG have-V accidently-more 1 "apple"
1b. I have one too many isaem / one isaem too many.
Ah, I like the "accidentally" idea.

Iyionaku wrote:
04 Oct 2019 10:12
Oh boy, finally a new translation challenge that is fun and quick!
Yay! Glad you like it [:)]

Iyionaku wrote:
07 Oct 2019 09:49
३क: शोकु प्रीपि फाबोंदु.
3k) Ēku prīpī phābēmdu.
1SG.NOM run.IPF.1SG fast.ADV.EXC
I ran too fast.

३त: शोकु प्रीपि फाबोंदु.
3k) Ēku prīpī cāra hājer phābēmdu.
1SG.NOM run.IPF.1SG four mile.PL.LOC fast.ADV.EXC
I ran four miles too fast.
Hmm, so why did you switch to "fast"?

Void wrote:
12 Oct 2019 02:01
:arm:

Ես ունենում չափից շատ խնձոր եմ։
Yes unenum č'ap'ic' šat xnjor em.
[jɛs unɛˈnum ʃɑt lɑv χənˌdzɔˈɾ‿ɛm]
1SG have-PRS.PTCPL too much apple be-1SG.PRS
"I have too many apples."
The IPA doesn't seem to match the transliteration. Am I reading that right?

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Re: One too many

Post by Iyionaku » 14 Oct 2019 09:14

Void wrote:
12 Oct 2019 02:01
Iyionaku wrote:
07 Oct 2019 09:49
Void wrote:
04 Oct 2019 13:03
Rjimâya / რძიმჷჲა
A conlang that's using the Armenian alphabet? I [<3] :)
Oh man, I love Armenian, but that's Georgian I'm using.
Right! Well, they do look a little similar, but I still would have thought I can get this correctly after five years of conlanging - well, that's at least a little embarassing.
Dormouse559 wrote:
12 Oct 2019 19:26
Iyionaku wrote: ↑Mon 07 Oct 2019, 08:49
३क: शोकु प्रीपि फाबोंदु.
3k) Ēku prīpī phābēmdu.
1SG.NOM run.IPF.1SG fast.ADV.EXC
I ran too fast.

३त: शोकु प्रीपि फाबोंदु.
3k) Ēku prīpī cāra hājer phābēmdu.
1SG.NOM run.IPF.1SG four mile.PL.LOC fast.ADV.EXC
I ran four miles too fast.
Hmm, so why did you switch to "fast"?
I've got no idea, but I'll fix it. Thank you.
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Re: One too many

Post by kiwikami » 15 Oct 2019 08:55

I'll add IPA later; I should probably go to bed right about now.

1. Izì Txaḳdaı ḍaúx ṣasa. or Izì zakı aḍàxaṣas.
zì txu<aḳ>daı ḍa<aú>x ṣa<a>s | zì zı<a>k ḍa<à>xaṣa<a>s
in.front.ofZ+ have<1.4PL> egg<PAT> limit<OBL>
| in.front.ofZ+ 1<OBL> egg.limit<OBL><OBL>
I have too many eggs. or I am beyond the egg limit.

2. Izì Tuxradaı daúx aṣàs.
zì txu<ra>daı ḍa<aú>x ṣa<à>s
in.front.ofZ+ have<1.4> apple<PAT> limit<OBL.DIM>

I have one too many eggs / one egg too many.

3. Izì Tdakíí ṣaakías. or Izì zakı tadaṣas.
zì ta<a>dakíí ṣa<akí-a>s | zì zı<a>k ta<a>daṣa<a>s
in.front.ofZ+ be.tall<1> limit<tallYY+-OBL>
| in.front.ofZ+ 1<OBL> height.limit<OBL><OBL>
I am too tall. or I am beyond the height limit.

4. Izì Tdakíí ṣaakîas · hua das dlaıkîaıs.
zì ta<a>dakíí ṣa<akí-à>s hua da<a>s dlı<akí-àı>s
in.front.ofZ+ be.tall<1> limit<tall><OBL> because that<OBL> small.length<tallYY+-OBL>

I am too tall by one small unit of length.

5. Izì Kràraas ṣaaráas.
zì kı<a>ràraas ṣa<ará-a>s
in.front.ofZ+ run<1> limit<farPP+-OBL>

I ran too far.

6. Izì Kràraas ṣaarâs · hua das dlaráıás.
zì kı<a>ràraas ṣa<ará-à>s hua da<a>s dlı<ará-ıá>s
in.front.ofZ+ run<1> limit<farPP+-OBL.DIM> because that<OBL> large.length<farPP+-OBL>

I ran too far by one large unit of distance.



Most expressions of this sort are done with some variety of ızì...ṣasa, literally 'in front of the limit', where ṣasa is given a variety of affixed morphemes to clarify the nature of the limit in question (be it of height, length, or what-have-you). The ones above use infixed directional 'axis' markers: ṣaaráas 'too far', ṣaakías 'too tall/short', others exist such as ṣaılías 'too long (temporally)', ṣaıǐtlıas 'too quickly', ṣadaas 'too close', ṣaııllas 'too far in the distant past', ṣakaıkas '(falling from) too high up', and so on and so forth. You can also use ṣasa in compounding to be more specific: aḍàxaṣas 'too many eggs', uzàulaṣas 'too much silence', etc.

A diminuitive form of ṣasa means 'only just (beyond the limit)', thus its use (aṣàs, ṣaakîas, ṣaarâs) in the phrases above where someone overshoots by only one. For (2), you could choose to be a bit less specific and say something like ızì zakı aḍàxaṣàs 'I am just beyond the egg limit'. An augmentative form would indicate 'way too much', as in the comparable trio (not seen above) aṣás, ṣaakíás, ṣaaráás.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

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