Romlang sound changes

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wakeagainstthefall
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Romlang sound changes

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 16 Jan 2013 06:20

I'm planning on this romlang having a Greek influence. Let me know if this doesn't work and I'd appreciate some suggestions on how to fix it if not. But anyway,
Sound Changes
a: > a
e: > e
i: > i
o: > o
u: > u
o > ɔ
i > e
u > u
ʊ > o

ai > ɛ
oi > e
au > a
eu > iu
VV > V

b > β
f > ɸ
d > ð
(e, i) before a vowel > j
w before e > β
final t > d > ð
final d > Ø
intervocalic s > z > ʒ
intervocalic p > β
g before a, o, u > ɣ
final r > x (voiceless uvular fricative)
kt > tk > θk > θ
ks > ʃ
sk > ʃ
final s > ʃ 
cluster with initial p > v
-are, -ere, -ire > -ale, -ele, -ile
final s after i > Ø
final m, n > Ø
consonant after m (except n) > Ø
n before f, v, s > Ø
r before β >  Ø
h > Ø 
w (except initially before e) > Ø
Last edited by wakeagainstthefall on 16 Jan 2013 23:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Valosken
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Valosken » 16 Jan 2013 18:24

Looks good to me.
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Dann lernte ich Deutsch.
Y ahora aprendo Español.

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Omzinesý
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Omzinesý » 16 Jan 2013 20:59

Which Latin has /u:/, /u/ and, /ʊ/?

wakeagainstthefall
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 16 Jan 2013 23:33

Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin shared these vowels (besides /u:/.)
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Salmoneus » 18 Jan 2013 13:16

wakeagainstthefall wrote:Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin shared these vowels (besides /u:/.)
Huh?

No.

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Avo
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Avo » 19 Jan 2013 17:18

Classical Latin had long /iː eː aː oː uː/ and short /i e a o u/, the latter may have been pronounced [ɪ ɛ a ɔ ʊ]. Then Vulgar Latin, [ɪ ʊ] where lowered to /e o/, yielding into the Proto-Romance seven vowel inventory /i e ɛ a ɔ o u/.

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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 20 Jan 2013 07:09

I have 2 questions. First, could I derive nouns from both nominatives and accusatives, even though romance languages more commonly derived nouns from the accusative forms? For example, the word for night in my romlang is nothe, derived from noctem (accusative.) However, the word for wolf is luvos, which derives from lupus (nominative.) Second, since my romlang is supposed to have a Greek influence, how much of the lexicon can be borrowed from Greek and for what words? Is it limited to technical terms and some abstract concepts or could I borrow words for everyday concepts such as water or fire? Sorry for the subpar wording, I tried my best. [:S]
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Omzinesý
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Omzinesý » 20 Jan 2013 10:39

Normally, the most frequent form is generalized for all the form in a paradigm.
It can well be that 'night' appears more frequently in the accusative: "Good night, spend my night..."; and wolf, being an animate noun, in the nominative.

Theoritically, anything can be borrowed. Greek was the presitige language of culture, so cultural terms can be expected. What church do the speakers of your language belong to, is the religious therminoly from Greek or Latin?
Basic concepts are borrowed rarely. I think, that is just because they already exist in a language and nobody finds it sophisticated to speak of porridge even in prestigeous terms. Of course, you can create interesting causes for semantic change and borrowing. Aqua could begin to mean 'urine' so it should be replaced be a Greek word. There are many kinds of cities. The words: urbis, ville, cittá and polis can all exist and refer to towns with different kinds of organisation.

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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 21 Jan 2013 02:07

I would say that the religious terms would come more from Greek than Latin. And another question: What's another way I can derive a future tense for verbs? I'm going to use vemile (to come) instead of the word for "to go" as far as the analytic way to form it, but how about inflections? I want it to be sort of unique or rare among Romance languages while maintaining a sense of realism.
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Re: Romlang future tense

Post by Omzinesý » 21 Jan 2013 09:37

wakeagainstthefall wrote:And another question: What's another way I can derive a future tense for verbs? I'm going to use vemile (to come) instead of the word for "to go" as far as the analytic way to form it, but how about inflections? I want it to be sort of unique or rare among Romance languages while maintaining a sense of realism.
That is art, you can do whatever you want.

Scandinavian languages (and Finnish too, regardless how I am agaist) form futures with the verb 'to come'. Lakov doesn't agree it is possible but so they however do.

How to inflect it? Phonological reduction (that is not as regular as normal sound changes) is part of grammaticalization (formation of new grammatical morphemes).

The easiest alternative is probably:
come-INFLECTION mainverb-NON.FIN.FORM

Latin had the non-finite supine form used with verbs of motion. You could derive something interesting from it.

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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 21 Jan 2013 20:31

Thank you so much, you're being super helpful. [:)] What do you mean by phonological reductions? Do you mean like what happened in Spanish, where the reduced forms of VL "abere" became future tense inflections? And can you give me an example of a Latin verb of motion with the supine and a translation?
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Omzinesý
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Omzinesý » 22 Jan 2013 12:00

Wkipedia knows it better than me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supine

Romance future is a classical example of grammaticalization. (I think Meillet used it.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammaticalization (Phonetic erosion in the article.)

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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Salmoneus » 22 Jan 2013 13:59

Salmoneus wrote:
wakeagainstthefall wrote:Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin shared these vowels (besides /u:/.)
Huh?

No.
Latin only had two u-sounds. Your soundrules require there to be three.

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Re: Romlang future tense

Post by Prinsessa » 22 Jan 2013 19:08

Omzinesý wrote:Scandinavian languages (and Finnish too, regardless how I am agaist) form futures with the verb 'to come'. Lakov doesn't agree it is possible but so they however do.
Don't forget that both languages get by just fine by very commonly simply using the plain present tense (especially when there is a temporal adverbial or a conjuncted clause clarifying the future nature of the phrase, but not necessarily).

Jag far i morgon.
I'll go tomorrow (lit. I go tomorrow).

Jag gör det senare.
I'll do it later (lit. I do it later).

Jag gör det, så lugna dig.
I'll do it, so calm down (lit. I do it, so calm down).

Jag skjuter upp det om du är sen.
I'll postpone it if you're late (lit. I postpone it if you're late).

et c.

A personal favourite that I remember from real life (because it was so retroflex and semantically effective in proportion to the amount of words, in comparison to the English translation), that I said to my sister ('la' is a southern Swedish regional form of what's commonly 'väl' elsewhere):

Surnar la?
It'll go sour, won't it (lit. [it ]goes sour, no?)?

Do note that these aren't simply alternatives to using an auxilary construction; these are the common ways to say it, and at least to me, it really does sound forced, weird and frankly non-native not to use the simple present tense here. Possibly with an exception for the very last one. Some of them might take 'skola' (shall), though, depending on the context. There are slight nuances.

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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 22 Jan 2013 22:17

Salmoneus wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:
wakeagainstthefall wrote:Classical Latin and Vulgar Latin shared these vowels (besides /u:/.)
Huh?

No.
Latin only had two u-sounds. Your soundrules require there to be three.
How?
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by Xing » 22 Jan 2013 22:24

wakeagainstthefall wrote:
Salmoneus wrote:

Latin only had two u-sounds. Your soundrules require there to be three.
How?
That some short u's become /u/, others /o/.
u > u
ʊ > o

wakeagainstthefall
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Re: Romlang sound changes

Post by wakeagainstthefall » 22 Jan 2013 23:24

Ah, my mistake. I forgot to edit that. It should be all short u > u.
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