Yantas - Birth of a New World

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 12 Apr 2015 16:53

Definitely need to get back to working on this. The amount of time I was dedicating to this project took a major hit around May/June last year due to real-world stuff that I've mentioned elsewhere on the board and I never really got round to reassigning any time back to it. I think it's been long enough that I should really pick things up where I left off [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by gestaltist » 12 Apr 2015 18:12

sangi39 wrote:Definitely need to get back to working on this. The amount of time I was dedicating to this project took a major hit around May/June last year due to real-world stuff that I've mentioned elsewhere on the board and I never really got round to reassigning any time back to it. I think it's been long enough that I should really pick things up where I left off [:)]
Please do. I have just spent two weeks working on the climate for the World of Twin Suns. It would be nice to have someone at the same stage in development, so to say.

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 12 Apr 2015 22:13

gestaltist wrote:
sangi39 wrote:Definitely need to get back to working on this. The amount of time I was dedicating to this project took a major hit around May/June last year due to real-world stuff that I've mentioned elsewhere on the board and I never really got round to reassigning any time back to it. I think it's been long enough that I should really pick things up where I left off [:)]
Please do. I have just spent two weeks working on the climate for the World of Twin Suns. It would be nice to have someone at the same stage in development, so to say.
As you might be able to tell, I'm struggling a fair bit with climates, as well as elevation. For example, the mountains in north-eastern to eastern Arenda might extend a fair way into the continent, resulting from a collision of two continental landmasses, so it might be reasonable to say that the Arendan desert doesn't extent nearly as far east as it does in my most recent update, and the northern portion of the Western Sirdic desert might not exist at all for similar reasons. However, since I haven't quite figured out elevation beyond "some mountains might be here" and climate beyond "this sort of thing happens at these latitudes", I've not been able to move further to make those sorts of statements about the Arendan and Western Sirdic deserts definite.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by gestaltist » 12 Apr 2015 23:18

Is your axial tilt and insolation the same as on Earth?

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 12 Apr 2015 23:24

gestaltist wrote:Is your axial tilt and insolation the same as on Earth?
Pretty much, yeah. I didn't want to overload myself with having to figure out what effect a different axial tilt and insolation would have on climate, so I just left those the same [:)]
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by gestaltist » 13 Apr 2015 12:17

I am by no means an expert. My knowledge of climatology is based on the research I’ve done in the last year or so. (I was working on a weather simulator as a hobby programming project but got stuck when trying to simulate wind on a day-by-day basis.) For my conworld, I have used Geoff Eddy’s climate cookbook and other resources. So take my advice with a grain of salt.

That said, I think you would benefit from adding ocean currents and precipitation to the mix. Ocean currents are important because they affect both temperature (they are called warm and cold currents for a reason) and precipitation (warm currents = more rain, cold currents = less rain) - and they are crucial for seafaring. Precipitation goes without saying: the same place can be a desert, a steppe or have a moderate continental climate depending on the levels of rain it receives.

What I would do: take your pressure zones and figure out the dominant winds from them. Make a new map with the winds. Based on the winds, figure out the main ocean currents (only the surface currents have strong and direct effect on climate and they are driven by wind). Divide them into warm (poleward), cold (equatorward) and „neutral“ (parallel to the equator). The ocean currents should turn out to be pretty stable throughout the year. If they aren't, you probably did something wrong. In the World of Twin Suns, I have one place where they are radically different: the large continent sitting on the north pole created a strong enough influence to push the polar front southward in winter which reverses the winds and the currents along the coast of that continent. It is very atypical, though. Enough so that my first reaction when I saw it was: damn, where have I screwed up? [;)]

Only after all this should you make the temperature map: both ocean currents and rain affect temperature (clouds reduce insolation but also reduce the amount of heat being radiated out of the atmosphere, especially on continents in winter).

Then, based on your precipitation and temperature maps, you will be able to create a semi-realistic climate map. (And also - you will be able to figure out where the main rivers start which is rather important.)

It is a lot of work: I needed two weeks to do all this, and I had one of these two weeks off work. And I completely screwed up the first two times and had to start over. So you need to decide if you are willing to put this amount of effort into the climate. In my opinion, it was worth it. I would have gotten some parts of the world totally wrong (e.g., I would have desert instead of savanna on one continent). I would never have imagined the situation on my northern continent - a de facto „polar monsoon“ - something unheard of on Earth. And I would probably stick to the few places I had a clear picture of in my mind for my concultures. And now I have a complete living planet before me.

Good luck!

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 13 Apr 2015 13:40

I've been going down what seems to be a fairly haphazard process. The general pattern I've tried to stick to is:

1) Basic temperature maps (July vs. January) based on latitude alone (with different shifts over land and ocean).
2) Add ocean currents
3) Second temperature map taking into account ocean currents
4) Add pressure followed by wind (July vs. January)
5) Second ocean currents map taking into account wind direction
6) Add precipitation (July vs. January)
7) Third temperature map taking into account precipitation (July vs. January)
8) Develop climate map (July vs. January)

But I'll kind of half do maps for some of those steps whenever I feel like I need a bit of a break just to see what I might end up dealing with ahead of time, see if on the right track in general.

It was based mainly on The Climate Cookbook but also based on some advice given by Salmoneus who suggested that since the various aspects of climate are quite interrelated, it might make sense to do one thing, then another and then go back to see how the second things affects the first and so on and so on.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by Znex » 13 Apr 2015 14:19

Wow, this has got to be a massive thing you've undertaken to do. I'm only barely understanding the mechanics behind everything going on especially in some of those technical posts, but your pictures are very illustrative in showing what you're doing and what's going on.

I can't wait for more posts about your physical conworld. [:D]
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 13 Apr 2015 14:39

Znex wrote:Wow, this has got to be a massive thing you've undertaken to do. I'm only barely understanding the mechanics behind everything going on especially in some of those technical posts, but your pictures are very illustrative in showing what you're doing and what's going on.

I can't wait for more posts about your physical conworld. [:D]
This is nothing compared to some of the stuff I've been following over at the Cartographers' Guild. I've got something like five go-to threads that started around the same time as mine that are simply amazing in terms of what they've gotten done.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
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So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by gestaltist » 13 Apr 2015 14:40

You make me think maybe I should share my climate maps for the World of Twin Suns...

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 13 Apr 2015 15:35

gestaltist wrote:You make me think maybe I should share my climate maps for the World of Twin Suns...
I can't see any reason why you shouldn't [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by gestaltist » 13 Apr 2015 15:45

sangi39 wrote:
gestaltist wrote:You make me think maybe I should share my climate maps for the World of Twin Suns...
I can't see any reason why you shouldn't [:)]
I have a few reasons why I shouldn't:
1) I have just barely finished working on it and there are likely to be mistakes (I am checking the climates as I focus on the history of a given region, so it could be months before I review it all)
2) in some places, I have kind of „winged it“ - e.g., I have assigned „tropical monsoon“ to some places that didn’t quite fit as rainforest or savanna despite a complete lack of a monsoon pattern
3) if someone finds a flaw in my process, it would mean a lot of extra work which I am not willing to do :mrgreen:

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 13 Apr 2015 16:12

gestaltist wrote:
sangi39 wrote:
gestaltist wrote:You make me think maybe I should share my climate maps for the World of Twin Suns...
I can't see any reason why you shouldn't [:)]
I have a few reasons why I shouldn't:
1) I have just barely finished working on it and there are likely to be mistakes (I am checking the climates as I focus on the history of a given region, so it could be months before I review it all)
2) in some places, I have kind of „winged it“ - e.g., I have assigned „tropical monsoon“ to some places that didn’t quite fit as rainforest or savanna despite a complete lack of a monsoon pattern
3) if someone finds a flaw in my process, it would mean a lot of extra work which I am not willing to do :mrgreen:
Well one reason that I think overrides all of those is "feedback". While there might be mistakes that you haven't spotted yet, and aren't ready/willing to put any work into correcting, then meh, you don't have to just yet. You've said that you're reviewing it region by region as you focus in on history, so any review of climate might be months down the line, but if you post what you have so far, then you'll have a basic idea of what needs reviewing when it eventually comes to it.

That's one of the reasons that I posted what I had even though I was only halfway through certain stages. The more feedback I got earlier on, the more I could see, later on, of what had gone in the wrong direction. I didn't necessarily correct it right away, but the basis for those corrections was there for me when I needed it [:)]
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by gestaltist » 15 Apr 2015 08:53

Just dropping by to say that you convinced me. I am going to share my climate maps in my thread over here: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4636. Or perhaps I will start a new thread for them.

However, I have already discovered some inconsistencies when I reviewed them in some alternative projections. I will share the maps with you when these are corrected.

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 21 Apr 2015 18:39

So I thought I'd get back into this quite slowly, first by naming places. Let's start with something we already know, the names of continents:

Image

Green - Sirden, home to the Kusan Empire and birthplace of the human species
Blue - Arenda
Yellow - Konyur
Orange - Hungas
Red - Mistaya, occasionally referred to as "The Land of the Wolf", after the Kovur inhabitants which originally evolved there
Purple - Velkasta, referred to as "The Frozen Twins" or "The Twins of the South".

The brown area is known in Classical Kusan as "The Great Bridge". Generally speaking it's considered a part of Sirden, but others consider it a part of Arenda instead.

I think next up I might look at naming islands and island chains, as well as oceans. These will likely have literal translations if the name derives from a Classical Kusan term, or a Kusanic term in a related language.
Last edited by sangi39 on 21 Apr 2015 19:20, edited 1 time in total.
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So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 21 Apr 2015 19:09

So quickly onto oceans:

Image

1 - The Northern Ocean
2 - The Dagger Ocean
3 - The Sunrise Ocean, occasionally referred to as "The Devoured Ocean" or "The Encircled Ocean "by some later cartographers.
4 - The Great (Eastern) Ocean
5 - The (Southern) Sunset Ocean
6 - The Northern Sunset Ocean

The Great Eastern Ocean refers specifically to a single ocean, although others simply refer to it as the Great Ocean, a term which is also applied to the entirely of Yantas' oceans. As a result, the term "Great Ocean" can be somewhat ambiguous, with "Eastern" being used as a method of disambiguation.

The Sunset Ocean refers to both the Southern Sunset Ocean and Northern Sunset Ocean as a combined body of water (usually by those who do not consider the Northern Sunset Ocean to be a distinct ocean), as well as referring to just the Southern Sunset Ocean (usually by those who do consider the Northern Sunset Ocean a distinct ocean). The term "Southern Sunset Ocean" is thus used as a method of disambiguation.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
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So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 10 Sep 2015 17:44

Right, finally, names for islands:

Sirden

Image

Yellow - The Sword Islands
Red - Greater and Lesser Hwarza
Purple - Palvo Island (the Shield of the Sun)
Grey - Gadar Island
Brown - The Ninda Islands
Orange - The Bereka Islands (The Bow Islands)
Pink - The Luvijasa Islands
Black - Hidira Island
White - Syavan Island
Blue - Lukorda Island

The eastern island of the Sword Islands is known mostly as the Hilt Island.



The Bridge

Image

Red - The Homon Islands (The Needle Islands)
Grey - Kowtir Island (The Northern Step)
Yellow - Nyerpaka Island (The Pin)
Green - Kirunal Island (The Western Step)
Purple - Jargovi Island (The Southern Step)
Black - The Lesser Stepping Stones

Kowtir, Nyerpaka, Kirunal and Jargovi make up the Greater Stepping Stones, occasionally known simply as the Great Steps or the Great Stones.

This is where we see the blur between exactly what areas are part of the bridge. From a linguistic viewpoint, the Lesser and Greater Stepping Stones belong to Sirden, since the populations of those islands speak Sirdic languages. However, they are considered by geographers, cartographers and the like to belong to the Bridge, as the name suggests.



Arenda

Image

Red - The Eneksama Islands
Green - Rowmiki Island
Brown - Pyalta Island
Black - Misinda Island



Konyur

Image

Orange - Gimalva Island
Black - Lesser Cisala
Brown - Greater Cisala
Orange - Virama Island
Green - Lenkasa Island
White - Zyarga Island

Virama, Lenkasa and Zyarga make up the Western Lupine Islands, within the Lupine Strait between Konyur and Hungas. This area is so named due to the increasing occurrence of Kovur outposts, not because the majority of the population is Kovur.



Hungas

Image

Yellow - Kyalsur Island
Red - Moryako Island
Green - Kasima Isle
Grey - Lyakar Isle
Black - The Talon Isles

Kyalsur and Moryako make up the Eastern Lupine Islands, although Moryako doesn't fall within the Lupine Strait.



Mistaya

Image

Purple - Reman Isle
Green - Wolf Isle



Velkasta

Image

Red - Alpa Isle
Green - Velki Island
Orange - Tundara Isle
Grey - Jagan Isle
Brown - Bazar Isle
Blue - Porgin Isle
White - The Dagger Isles




"Island", "Islands", "Isle" and "Isles" indicate a difference in how the area was named. Names which are derived from native terms take "Island" and "Islands" while names which were given by explorers take "Isle" and "Isles". "Island" is typically dropped in relation to islands with Sirdic-speaking populations but is retained elsewhere, e.g. Palvo Island can be referred to simply as Palvo, but Gadar Island will always be referred to as Gadar Island.
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by shimobaatar » 11 Sep 2015 02:12

sangi39 wrote:"Island", "Islands", "Isle" and "Isles" indicate a difference in how the area was named. Names which are derived from native terms take "Island" and "Islands" while names which were given by explorers take "Isle" and "Isles". "Island" is typically dropped in relation to islands with Sirdic-speaking populations but is retained elsewhere, e.g. Palvo Island can be referred to simply as Palvo, but Gadar Island will always be referred to as Gadar Island.
Lovely! That's a really cool distinction to make.

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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by sangi39 » 11 Sep 2015 12:08

shimobaatar wrote:
sangi39 wrote:"Island", "Islands", "Isle" and "Isles" indicate a difference in how the area was named. Names which are derived from native terms take "Island" and "Islands" while names which were given by explorers take "Isle" and "Isles". "Island" is typically dropped in relation to islands with Sirdic-speaking populations but is retained elsewhere, e.g. Palvo Island can be referred to simply as Palvo, but Gadar Island will always be referred to as Gadar Island.
Lovely! That's a really cool distinction to make.
It's supposed to be kind of historical as well, and kind of shows the main cultural viewpoint I'll be dealing with as I start moving through history. Isles are either uninhabited or not inhabited by humans (and by the Kovur instead). They might have a "native" name, either given to them by a nearby human culture (the Dagger Islands, for example, might have a Velkastan name, but no-one lives there), or they might have a Kovur name (Wolf Island, for example, is home to one of the first Kovur populations encountered by the post-Kusan Empire explorers of the 16th Century AD. It has a native Kovur name, but it was given a different name by explorers).

The dropping of "Island" shows that the Sirdic languages, and the Kusanic languages within them especially, are spoken by the main cultural group I want to deal with (and have wanted to deal with since I started work on Classical Kusan), or at least that they're nearby. The Kusan Empire, for example, is spoken on Palvo, the Hwarza Islands and the coastal regions around about there.

What I want to move onto next is naming seas and mountain ranges, and then possibly deserts and rainforests, although since I haven't worked on climate much, the actual areas that those names apply to might change a little bit.

I might also go back and try to show what the Classical Kusan versions of names given to islands might be, e.g. Wolf Island might be Vajen Jenki (wolf-PL-GEN island, Island of Wolves) while The Sword Islands might natively be known as Rudalgan Hënkunyë (sword-GEN island.COL).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
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Re: Yantas - Birth of a New World

Post by shimobaatar » 12 Sep 2015 03:50

sangi39 wrote: It's supposed to be kind of historical as well, and kind of shows the main cultural viewpoint I'll be dealing with as I start moving through history. Isles are either uninhabited or not inhabited by humans (and by the Kovur instead). They might have a "native" name, either given to them by a nearby human culture (the Dagger Islands, for example, might have a Velkastan name, but no-one lives there), or they might have a Kovur name (Wolf Island, for example, is home to one of the first Kovur populations encountered by the post-Kusan Empire explorers of the 16th Century AD. It has a native Kovur name, but it was given a different name by explorers).
When you say that "no-one lives there", do I understand correctly that you mean no humans live there?

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