Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

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Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by MoonRightRomantic » 09 Aug 2016 13:54

Lots of natscripts don't accurately reflect all the phonemic distinctions of a natlang unless they are specifically designed to or otherwise exhibit quirky spelling rules. Are there any conscripts that do the same thing?

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by Creyeditor » 09 Aug 2016 16:21

I think Clawgrips conscripts are logographic.
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by clawgrip » 09 Aug 2016 16:44

It's true that I have a couple logographic scripts, but I think the question was about phonetic scripts with a lot of irregularities or deficient areas, like English spelling, for example. So I can provide one of my own, the Uyendur script:

There is only one letter for both /i/ and /j/ (Image), and similarly, one letter for both /u/ and /w/ (Image).
There are nine vowels in the language, but only six vowel letters. The remaining vowels are represented by following a regular vowel letter with the letter for /χ/ (Image), i.e.:

Image e

Image ĕ

Image a, Image ă

Image o, Image ŏ

Image i, Image ĭ

Image u, Image ĭ

You can see that ĭ is written two different ways, depending on etymology.

sequences of /ij/, /ji/, and /uw/, /wu/ are also usually written as Image and Image respectively, using Image in order to avoid a sequence of two of the same letter (though the relativizer/complementizer ĭ is generally written Image).

when the root wu- would imply a sequence of Image, e.g. wĭm (expected spelling is ‹uuxm›), one of the Image is dropped, resulting in Image wĭm, which is ‹uxm›. Similar alterations can occur for other words involving sequences of ‹i j u w›

Also, /t/ can be written both Image and Image depending on etymology.

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by MoonRightRomantic » 09 Aug 2016 17:57

clawgrip wrote:It's true that I have a couple logographic scripts, but I think the question was about phonetic scripts with a lot of irregularities or deficient areas, like English spelling, for example.
English (and Danish, French, etc) is on the extreme end of irregularity with very few scripts exceeding it. But many other scripts that are largely phonemic exhibit irregularities, such as certain Japanese particles, syllabaries with implicit initials/codas or dummy/silent vowels, alphabets with "hard"/"soft" consonant distinctions dependent on context, scripts for tonal languages that don't write tone, and so forth. A reader unfamiliar with the language would not be aware of these distinctions.

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by clawgrip » 10 Aug 2016 04:52

I hope my example was what you were looking for.

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by Khemehekis » 10 Aug 2016 04:58

MoonRightRomantic wrote:such as certain Japanese particles
I know what you mean. "Wo" for "o", "ha" for "wa", "he" for "e".
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by clawgrip » 10 Aug 2016 06:23

Those are just relics that survived the postwar spelling reforms.
Example I ripped from elsewhere:

Old orthography:
けふはお天気がよかつたので、お向かひのヨシコさんを「公園に行かう」と誘つてみましたが、ヨシコさんは忙しいやうでした。
Spelling transliteration:
Kefu ha otenki ga yokatsuta node, omukahi no Yoshiko-san wo "kouen ni ikau" to sasotsute mimashita ga, Yoshiko-san ha isogashii yau deshita.

Modern orthography:
今日はお天気がよかったので、お向かいのヨシコさんを「公園に行こう」と誘ってみましたが、ヨシコさんは忙しいようでした。
Hepburn Romanization:
Kyō wa otenki ga yokatta node, omukai no Yoshiko-san o "Kōen ni ikō" to sasotte mimashita ga, Yoshiko-san wa isogashii yō deshita.

Also the use of the letters ゐ and ゑ, pronounced identically to い and え.

But of course, this isn't a conscript.
Last edited by clawgrip on 10 Aug 2016 16:40, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by MoonRightRomantic » 10 Aug 2016 13:46

clawgrip wrote:I hope my example was what you were looking for.
Certainly. You even used plene writing (diacritics to clarify ambiguous phonograms) to indicate change over time!

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by k1234567890y » 11 Aug 2016 02:05

Using logograms is a way to make scripts that don't accurately display phonemes, but besides, there are other possibilities.

Urban Basanawa is a West Germanic languge and can be counted as a dialect of Low German, but due to some historical and ethnic factors, it uses a Japanese-derived script, however, writing system does not really influence the more fundamental parts of a language like grammar and the pronunciation of affixes, functional words and daily life words, and since the phonological structure is much complex for Germanic languages than Japanese, this produces irregularities besides the use of Kanji.

You can count the script of Urban Basanawa as either a conscript or not.

Below are some examples of Urban Basanawa:

彼ね歩る゚と、然く彼欲おっる゚とね歩ら゚ん
/hɪ nɛ wandəlt ak hɪ wɔɫt nɛ wandələn/
彼 ね 歩る゚-と 然く 彼 欲おっる゚-と ね 歩ら゚-ん
3.SG.ANIM.NOM NEG walk-PRT.3.SG but 3.SG.NOM want.PRT-3.SG.PRT NEG walk-INF
He didn't walk, but he didn't want to walk.

彼ね歩る゚と、まある走あんと
/hɪ nɛ wandəlt mɑ:r rant/
彼 ね 歩る゚-と まある 走あん-と
3.SG.ANIM.NOM NEG walk-PRT.3.SG but.rather run.PRT-3.SG.PRT
He didn't walk, but ran.

吾知いいとだとジャック建うとだ屋
/ɪk wi:t dat dʒak baʊt də haʊs/(pronunciation)
吾 知いいと だと ジャック 建う-と だ 屋
1.SG.NOM know.PRES.1.SG COMP Jack build-PRET.3.SG the house(interlinear)
I know that Jack built the house.

吾知いいとだと彼いすだ屋だジャック建うと
/ɪk wi:t dat dat ɪs də haʊs də dʒak baʊt/(pronunciation)
吾 知いいと だと 彼 いす だ 屋 だ ジャック 建う-と
1.SG.NOM know.PRES.1.SG COMP that be.PRES.3.SG the house REL Jack build-PRET.3.SG(interlinear)
I know that that's the house that Jack built.

彼いす全る゚グリークと我
/ɪt ɪs aɫ gri:k tə mɪ/
彼 いす 全る゚ グリーク と 我
3.SG.INAM.NOM/ACC be.3.SG.PRES all greek to 1.SG.ACC

as you can see, several hiraganas used in Urban Basanawa can have more than one pronunciation, depending on the word or affix it represents, for example, だ can be pronounced as /da/ and /də/; と can be pronounced as /to/, /t/, and is pronunced as /tə/ whe it represents the preposition with the meaning "to".

Besides Urban Basanawa, I plan to make logographic conscripts for at least three of my conlangs(Lonmai Luna, Classical Uraki and Ame); also, among my conlangs that don't use logograms, the conscript of some of them reflect the historical rather than the contemporary pronunciation(for example, Hux Kham).

Besides my own conlangs, there are conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes, for example, the Tengwar for Sindarin by J.R.R. Tolkien, as I have read somewhere that long vowels and overlong vowels don't distinguish each other in Sindarin, probably Tolkien intentionally did so to mimic the irregularities for the writing systems of natural languages.
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by Iyionaku » 11 Aug 2016 03:34

I don't know if using latin script is a disqualifier for this script topic.
If not, then Yélian fits pretty well in this script too, sometimes because of changes I made in pronunctiation, some because of being uncertain at the beginning of my conlang carrier.

Therefore:
  • /i/ and /j/ are both pronounced <i>
    <iy> can either be pronounced /a̯i:/ or /iʃ/, even forming homographic pairs
    <f> is usually /β/ but also silent in several places
    /k/ can be either written <c>, <k> or <qu>, still this is fixed per word
    [ɛ] can be written <e> or <è>, fixed lexically (the same counts for all open vowels)
    <oi> and <ui> are usually pronounced [ɔʊ̯] and [uː], respectively, but for some words also [ɔɪ̯] and [ʊɪ̯] (not predictable)
    some plosives within lexemes are entirely silent, like in clapter [ˈklăpɛɾ]
    in plural, stressed syllables from the pattern <voiceless stop> + <dark vowel> become voiced, but this is not shown in the writing


Two extreme examples: fracto [ˈrăto] - dragon
galactúi [xalɐ̆ˈtuː]~[xalə̆ˈtʊ̯ɪ] - ship, plural galactúin [xalə̆ˈduːn]

Also, I am planning to create some kind of tamil-like diglossia for my most recent conlang Paatherye, which will develop an own writing system soon (currently written with Devanagari), telling more then.
Last edited by Iyionaku on 21 Sep 2016 01:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by k1234567890y » 11 Aug 2016 07:00

Iyionaku wrote:I don't know if using latin script is a disqualifier for this script.
If not, then Yélian fits pretty well in this script too, sometimes because of changes I made in pronunctiation, some because of being uncertain at the beginning of my conlang carrier.

Therefore:
  • /i/ and /j/ are both pronounced <i>
    <iy> can either be pronounced /a̯i:/ or /iʃ/, even forming homographic pairs
    <f> is usually /β/ but also silent in several places
    /k/ can be either written <c>, <k> or <qu>, still this is fixed per word
    [ɛ] can be written <e> or <è>, fixed lexically (the same counts for all open vowels)
    <oi> and <ui> are usually pronounced [ɔʊ̯] and [uː], respectively, but for some words also [ɔɪ̯] and [ʊɪ̯] (not predictable)
    some plosives within lexemes are entirely silent, like in clapter [ˈklăpɛɾ]
    in plural, stressed syllables from the pattern <voiceless stop> + <dark vowel> become voiced, but this is not shown in the writing


Two extreme examples: fracto [ˈrăto] - dragon
galactúi [xalɐ̆ˈtuː]~[xalə̆ˈtʊ̯ɪ] - ship, plural galactúin [xalə̆ˈduːn]

Also, I am planning to create some kind of tamil-like diglossia for my most recent conlang Paatherye, which will develop an own writing system soon (currently written with Devanagari), telling more then.
the /a̯i:/ or /iʃ/ sounds interesting, Iyionaku, so your username is pronunced as /iʃi(j)onaku/?
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by Iyionaku » 11 Aug 2016 08:15

k1234567890y wrote: the /a̯i:/ or /iʃ/ sounds interesting, Iyionaku, so your username is pronunced as /iʃi(j)onaku/?
Exactly, yes.
Here it is pretty clear as [a̯iːi] would be pretty unlikely (and has never occured). iyi means child by the way.

However, there are homographs like piya [ˈpa̯iːɐ] - call and piya [ˈpiːʃa] - kitchen. Hence, some writers, especially in the north of my fictional world, tend to use a nicolor called diacritic accent on the i to differentiate. Kitchen would then be spelled pîya.
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by k1234567890y » 11 Aug 2016 09:09

I think there are other conlangs whose scripts don't accurately display the pronunciation, as this phenomenon is actually pretty common among natural languages, even for languages with a more phonemic spelling like Standard German, etymology is still a part of the considerations when an orthography is made.
Iyionaku wrote:
k1234567890y wrote: the /a̯i:/ or /iʃ/ sounds interesting, Iyionaku, so your username is pronunced as /iʃi(j)onaku/?
Exactly, yes.
Here it is pretty clear as [a̯iːi] would be pretty unlikely (and has never occured). iyi means child by the way.

However, there are homographs like piya [ˈpa̯iːɐ] - call and piya [ˈpiːʃa] - kitchen. Hence, some writers, especially in the north of my fictional world, tend to use a nicolor called diacritic accent on the i to differentiate. Kitchen would then be spelled pîya.
nice (:

btw how did people in your conworld learn the Latin script?
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by Iyionaku » 11 Aug 2016 10:27

k1234567890y wrote:btw how did people in your conworld learn the Latin script?
You got me with this one.
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by MoonRightRomantic » 11 Aug 2016 14:01

Since there seems to be some confusion, a valid example is any alphabet, abugida, syllabary, etc where the graphemes of the script do not have a one-to-one correspondence to the phonemes of the language it represents. That is, someone unfamiliar with the language's spelling rules may not be able to accurately pronounce a written sentence without first knowing the spelling rules. This is true of many natscripts and I recently posted an attempt of my own.

Logograms do not count because they represent morphemes and not fixed sound values. If you tried writing English with logograms (such as neoglyphi), the morphemes would have variable sound values due to sound changes in the words that use them.

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by clawgrip » 11 Aug 2016 14:35

I assumed that's what you were going for. My Prewar Japanese example was only for the hiragana, which is phonetic and clearly differs from the actual pronunciation.

Also, logographic scripts shouldn't be discounted entirely, because they are still partially phonetic, and this can easily lead you astray, e.g.:

反 han
販 han
叛 han
坂 han
阪 han
板 han
版 han
飯 han

返 hen

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by mahagugu » 20 Sep 2016 21:27

So, if the glottal stop is forgotten but used ... does this count?

So many conlangers probably have forgotten that because it is not common
in so many European languages although they are using it. No one thought
it necessary to add a glottal stop in "blauäugig" .

Esperantists did not find it necessary to add it in "scii" , "kie" , "via"
and so on and the same goes for the "ŝava alfabeto" ( a script of
the Shawian Alphabet but with special modification for Esperanto.

scii [ stsi?i ] , kie [ ki?e ] , via [ vi?a ]

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by Iyionaku » 21 Sep 2016 01:49

It is only necessary if the glottal stop is phonemic. In German or Esperanto, it is not.
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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by mahagugu » 21 Sep 2016 11:15

Iyionaku wrote:It is only necessary if the glottal stop is phonemic. In German or Esperanto, it is not.
However you have to use it in order to be understood. Okay, there are whole sentences in German
where it simply would not mind.

"Ihre Antwort ist wichtig." ( It is clear that you can not join "Antwort" to "Ihre" and "ist" to "Antwort" but
that there is a separation and it is not Italian or Spanish were you can have nice "sandhis" and join them )

also there is a break or glottal stop in "en la akvo" and saying something like " en lakvo" would cause
a reply like "kie estas lakvo ? mi neniam audis antaue. "

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Re: Conscripts that don't accurately display phonemes?

Post by Curlyjimsam » 25 Sep 2016 16:59

I tend to try and work various "imperfections" into most of my scripts. So, for example in Viksen, certain letters aren't always pronounced (e.g. the letters for l, r and h in final position), and others are homophonous (e.g. there's two ways of writing each of /ȿ/, /ɀ/ and /ɳ/). /w/ and /j/ are marked by accents on the following vowel, but if the vowel already has an accent (because it was historically long), then they aren't marked at all. Some words are pronounced differently in compounds, but still spelled the same - e.g. ig /ig/ "day" is often pronounced /yi/ in names of days of the week, but this isn't reflected in the spelling. And so on.
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