Please Comment on what I have

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GrandPiano
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by GrandPiano » 30 Oct 2016 17:29

Taurenzine wrote:Btw I never had a /dl/ and I don't want to, I don't know how that became part of the conversation
Sumelic thought /nl/ would be disfavored for the same reason /dl/ is disfavored (/d/ and /l/ are both alveolar, and so is /n/), and I thought /nl/ would be even more disfavored than /dl/ (because /n/ and /l/ are both sonorants while /d/ is a stop).
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 30 Oct 2016 17:32

GrandPiano wrote:
Taurenzine wrote:Btw I never had a /dl/ and I don't want to, I don't know how that became part of the conversation
Sumelic thought /nl/ would be disfavored for the same reason /dl/ is disfavored (/d/ and /l/ are both alveolar, and so is /n/), and I thought /nl/ would be even more disfavored than /dl/ (because /n/ and /l/ are both sonorants while /d/ is a stop).
Yeah, I guess that makes sense. either way, both are gone so both are disfavored. thanks for helping me what that guys [:D]

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 30 Oct 2016 17:32

Right so I think I've finished my diphthongs, and I know which ones I want to take out. So I will have:
/ui/, /uɑ/, /uɛ/, /ua/, /iu/, /iɛ/, /ia/, /ɑi/, /ɛu/, /ɛi/, /au/, /ai/, and /aɛ/.

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GrandPiano
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by GrandPiano » 30 Oct 2016 17:34

Sorry, what I said wasn't quite accurate. Sumelic proposed a sound change of /nl/ > /dl/ but wasn't sure if that would work since clusters like /dl/ tend to be disfavored (since /d/ and /l/ have the same place of articulation). I thought that /nl/ would be disfavored for the same reason, perhaps even more disfavored since /n/ and /l/ have more similar manners of articulation than /d/ and /l/.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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GrandPiano
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by GrandPiano » 30 Oct 2016 17:36

Taurenzine wrote:Right so I think I've finished my diphthongs, and I know which ones I want to take out. So I will have:
/ui/, /uɑ/, /uɛ/, /ua/, /iu/, /iɛ/, /ia/, /ɑi/, /ɛu/, /ɛi/, /au/, /ai/, and /aɛ/.
Are /ui uɑ uɛ ua iu iɛ ia/ rising or falling? /uɑ̯/ is different from /u̯ɑ/.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 30 Oct 2016 17:57

GrandPiano wrote:
Taurenzine wrote:Right so I think I've finished my diphthongs, and I know which ones I want to take out. So I will have:
/ui/, /uɑ/, /uɛ/, /ua/, /iu/, /iɛ/, /ia/, /ɑi/, /ɛu/, /ɛi/, /au/, /ai/, and /aɛ/.
Are /ui uɑ uɛ ua iu iɛ ia/ rising or falling? /uɑ̯/ is different from /u̯ɑ/.
good thing I'm in the beginners corner, because i'm a noob and don't really understand what you mean...

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Sumelic » 30 Oct 2016 18:11

A "rising" diphthong is one where the main vowel, the "nucleus" of the syllable, comes second, and the first vowel is just a non-syllabic glide into the second. The [ju] in English "beauty" could be analyzed as a rising diphthong /iu/.

A "falling" diphthong is like the /aɪ/ in English "eye." The first vowel is the nucleus of the syllable, and the second vowel is a non-syllabic glide.

Basically, if your /ui/ is rising, it will sound similar or identical to [wi], and if it's falling, it will sound similar or identical to [uj].

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 30 Oct 2016 18:52

Sumelic wrote:A "rising" diphthong is one where the main vowel, the "nucleus" of the syllable, comes second, and the first vowel is just a non-syllabic glide into the second. The [ju] in English "beauty" could be analyzed as a rising diphthong /iu/.

A "falling" diphthong is like the /aɪ/ in English "eye." The first vowel is the nucleus of the syllable, and the second vowel is a non-syllabic glide.

Basically, if your /ui/ is rising, it will sound similar or identical to [wi], and if it's falling, it will sound similar or identical to [uj].
the simple answer then is both, i'll have both in my language.

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GrandPiano
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by GrandPiano » 30 Oct 2016 19:16

You should specify which are which, then.
:eng: - Native
:chn: - B2
:esp: - A2
:jpn: - A2

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 30 Oct 2016 19:31

GrandPiano wrote:You should specify which are which, then.

agreed. what if I just took out /ui/ and just used /wi/ or /uj/? along with any diphthongs that started or ended with /u/ or /i/?

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Sumelic » 30 Oct 2016 20:29

You could do that. Whether you transcribe a sound as /wi/ or /u̯i/ often depends more on how the sounds fit into the language's sound system than on their phonetic properties.

For example, if a language shows a pattern of affixation like [tap] + /i/ = [taˈpi], [tu] + /i/ = [twi], it may make sense to analyze diphthongs as underlyingly being sequences of two vowels. This kind of pattern occurs in French, although there are some complications that make the phonemic status of onglides/rising diphthongs more unclear in that language.

On the other hand, sometimes parts of phonetic diphthongs seem to pattern like consonants. For example, in English, words starting with /ju/, which does act like a diphthong in some ways, are nonetheless preceded by the pre-consonantal "a" form of the indefinite article rather than the pre-vocalic "an" form. This supports an analysis where /ju/ starts out with a consonantal element /j/ rather than a vowel element /i/.

It's not very clear-cut: often diphthongs show conflicting tendencies or behave ambiguously.

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 30 Oct 2016 20:35

Sumelic wrote:You could do that. Whether you transcribe a sound as /wi/ or /u̯i/ often depends more on how the sounds fit into the language's sound system than on their phonetic properties.

For example, if a language shows a pattern of affixation like [tap] + /i/ = [taˈpi], [tu] + /i/ = [twi], it may make sense to analyze diphthongs as underlyingly being sequences of two vowels. This kind of pattern occurs in French, although there are some complications that make the phonemic status of onglides/rising diphthongs more unclear in that language.

On the other hand, sometimes parts of phonetic diphthongs seem to pattern like consonants. For example, in English, words starting with /ju/, which does act like a diphthong in some ways, are nonetheless preceded by the pre-consonantal "a" form of the indefinite article rather than the pre-vocalic "an" form. This supports an analysis where /ju/ starts out with a consonantal element /j/ rather than a vowel element /i/.

It's not very clear-cut: often diphthongs show conflicting tendencies or behave ambiguously.
Yeah, i'll just replace all of those with /w/ and /j/.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by qwed117 » 30 Oct 2016 20:41

Sumelic wrote:You could do that. Whether you transcribe a sound as /wi/ or /u̯i/ often depends more on how the sounds fit into the language's sound system than on their phonetic properties.

For example, if a language shows a pattern of affixation like [tap] + /i/ = [taˈpi], [tu] + /i/ = [twi], it may make sense to analyze diphthongs as underlyingly being sequences of two vowels. This kind of pattern occurs in French, although there are some complications that make the phonemic status of onglides/rising diphthongs more unclear in that language.

On the other hand, sometimes parts of phonetic diphthongs seem to pattern like consonants. For example, in English, words starting with /ju/, which does act like a diphthong in some ways, are nonetheless preceded by the pre-consonantal "a" form of the indefinite article rather than the pre-vocalic "an" form. This supports an analysis where /ju/ starts out with a consonantal element /j/ rather than a vowel element /i/.

It's not very clear-cut: often diphthongs show conflicting tendencies or behave ambiguously.
I never realized that.
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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 30 Oct 2016 20:48

so after thinking about it, I've decided that there will only be 2 diphthongs. /ɛu/ and /aɛ/. the rest can be made with combinations of vowels with the consonants /w/ and /j/

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Sumelic » 31 Oct 2016 07:28

Can't /ɛu/ be analyzed as /ɛw/?

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 31 Oct 2016 16:21

Sumelic wrote:Can't /ɛu/ be analyzed as /ɛw/?
right..... Should have thought of that. Thanks, thats going in. so the only Diphthong I have is /aɛ/

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil » 31 Oct 2016 19:26

I would wonder if it is even worth keeping just that around consider the distance between the two is so small and you have both the phonemes on their own but stranger things have happened and it is a artistic choice.

Seriously... consider how many vowels Danish has: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rt.svg.png

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 01 Nov 2016 13:16

Nachtuil wrote:I would wonder if it is even worth keeping just that around consider the distance between the two is so small and you have both the phonemes on their own but stranger things have happened and it is a artistic choice.

Seriously... consider how many vowels Danish has: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... rt.svg.png

I might as well just keep it so I have one if any, you know?

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 01 Nov 2016 13:20

I created a writing system for my language, and at first I was very proud of myself, but then I looked at it and was unhappy with it.
Tell me what you think? doesn't it just look a bit weird?
Image


Each symbol corresponds to one row on my Phonetic Chart.

Image

Voiceless stops, because they are the first column, get to use the symbols without any added symbols on top. Voiced stops need one line on top, sort of like the accent in Spanish, to define that its not /k/ but /g/, or not /t/ but /d/. This pattern continues, but the last two rows are different however, because only one of the two columns actually contains a sound; there is no voiceless 'shaped voice' as I call them, so there is only one Identifier for that columns. In the ancient background of this language, it was rigid because it was written in stone, so it was a square. In middle ages, it was a circle and in more modern times it was/is a dot. The last two don't need Identifiers because they only contain one sound, /w/ and /j/. the vowels are simplistic, work the same way in English (of course without the fact that the ones in English don't always make the sound that they should, in this writing system if you put a symbol down, thats the sound you'll get)


The two symbols that I particularly Dislike are the symbols that stand for /s/ and /θ/.

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 01 Nov 2016 15:55

I was thinking of replacing the characters for /s/ and /θ/ with these two. the ancient is on top and the rest is self explanatory.

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