English Orthography Reform

A forum for discussing linguistics or just languages in general.
Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Zé do Rock » 17 Jul 2018 14:51

Axiem wrote:
17 Jul 2018 03:55
Standard is wat peeple lern in scool and speek on TV.
These are two different things.
EU
Mi tou falando de locutoris de noticias. La prononciaciones can varire de spiki zu spiki, aber in el endefect ali wole das same: spiking "correctli", spiking la standard.

HS
I'm talking about newsreeders. The pronunciation can slitely vary from speeker to speeker, but in the end they all want the same: to speek "correctly", to speek the standard.

Cutting the E isnt compulsory, but if you dont cut it, you hav to spel with 2 N (in HS, of course).
Sooo...the same word is spelled different ways, then?
EU
Dans certo cas, oui.

HS
In certan cases, yes.
The britis
So wait, are you dropping the "h" from "sh" when it's at the end of a word? Or is there an errant "i" in there?
EU
Tenemos 193 landes e casi 100 maneras diferentes de produca la derivativos (in inglish: canadIAN, mexicAN, chinESE, spanISH/spanIARD, german (not GERMANIAN), swede/swedISH, israelI, netherland/dutch, switzerland/swiss, el adjectivo pro Antigua and Barbuda is non antiguanandbarbudan, is antiguan, lo ki colide con el adjectivo de Antigua, ki is solo una de las dos islas, etc). E dopo, in inglishe ce can dizer "the german language" e "i saw a german", e ce can dizer "the french language" mas can no dizer "i saw a french". Und a russi can no meme sei "I'm russian" in inglishe correctli, wail er no corzes inglish U in sai lingua hat - OK, lo can sei /raS@n/, ma dat is not exactli correct. So i hav a sistema pro europan, and i decided to usa it in ale linguas, since it is a pein in the ass wen it comes to less wel known landes.

La nome du land ist el originale nom - si oni abla una lingua ki mi reforma, la reformad ortografie. La pronunciacion can bi como la localis chamam la land (ou cidi ou region, etc), ou de acordo con europan ou de acordo co las reglas in tua propria lingua. Ai ainige speciale reglan pro linguas ki no co la roman alfabeto scriben werde, composita, etc, ma die mi lasse nau in aussen.

The habitis ar la stem + I (plural IS), if they ar femal oni can sei -A, if they'r manal oni can sei -O. El adjectif ist con -ISHE pour el adjectif des landes con una lingua germanik in Europa, -ISKI pour la habitis des landes con una slavki lingua, pour la rest el adjectif ist -IANO (ou -ANO si la nom finit con -A, sans otre vocal). La finiale vocal can bin eliminee si na dopo vene non a consonant.

land: franse, ainwoni fransi, fransa, franso, adjectivo franciano (la franciano problemas, la francian institucionen)
land: britain, habiti briti, brita, brito, adjectifo britishe (la britishe problemas, la british instituciones)
land: canada, habiti canadi, canadana, canado, adjectivo 'canadano' (la canadano problemas, la canadan instituciones)
land: russia, ainwoni russi, russa, russo, adjectivo russki

As a regla, la stem comes de la land, but in some cases, as la landes dat end in -land, -mark, -stan, la stem derives de la pople ki live tam. Mas come mi ha dis, sa cist una personale stori, il ha no relacion co la House Stile.

HS

We hav 193 cuntries and almost 100 difrent ways to produce the derivativs (in inglish: canadIAN, mexicAN, chinESE, spanISH/spanIARD, german (not GERMANIAN), swede/swedISH, netherland/dutch, switzerland/swiss, the adjectiv for Antigua and Barbuda isnt antiguanandbarbudan, it is antiguan, wich colides with the adjectiv of Antigua, wich is just one of the 2 islandes, etc). And then, in inglishe yu can say "the german language" and "i saw a german", yu can say "the french language" but yu cant say "i saw a french". And a russian cant eeven say "I'm russian" in inglishe correctly, since he doesnt have an inglishe short U in his language - OK, he can say /raS@n/, wich is understandable but not exactly correct. So i hav a sistem for europan, and i decided to use it in all languages, since it is a pane in the ass wen it comes to less wel noen cuntries.

The name of the cuntry is the original name - if they speek a language that i reform, the reformd spelling. The pronunciation can be the way the locals call it (or thare city or thare reegion, etc), or acording to the europano rules or acording to the rules in your own language. Thare ar a few special rules for languages that dont use the roman alfabet, for composed names, etc, but this would be too much for now. So yu can say /ruski/, but if yu'r an angli yu can also say /rVski/.

The inhabbitants ar the stem + I (plural IS), if they ar feemale yu can say -A, if they'r male you can say -O. The adjectiv is with -ISHE for the adjectivs of germanic cuntries in Europe, -ISKI for slavki cuntries, and for the rest the adjectiv/deemonim is IANO (or ANO if the name ends with -A, without another vowel beside). The vowel can be dropd if after the word no consonant comes.

cuntry: franse, inhabbitant fransi, fransa, franso, adjectivo franciano (the franciano problems, the francian institutions)
cuntry: britain, inhabbitant briti, brita, brito, adjectiv britishe (the britishe problems, the british institutions)
cuntry: canada, inhabbitant canadi, canadana, canado, adjectivo 'canadano' (the canadano problems, the canadan institutions)
cuntry: russia, inhabbitant russi, russa, russo, adjectiv russki

As a rule, the stem comes from the cuntry, but in some cases, as the cuntries that end in -land, -mark, -stan, the stem derives from the peeple who liv thare. But as i sed befor, this is a personal story, it doesnt hav ennything to do with the House Stile.

EU
amerikis, espaniars - la finale forma va bin 'USis' y 'espanis'. den amerikis is la habitis af el americano continent, assim mi, como brasili, va bin ameriki tambem. i bin aina, natürali, ma wenige se das so...

HS
amerikis, espaniars - the final forms wil be 'USis' and 'espanis'. then amerikis wil be the inhabbitants of the american continent, and i, as a brazilian, wil be an american too. of course i am one, after all, but few peeple see it that way...

What do you mean by "internationalize"? I thought this was a spelling reform, not also changing words to something different.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. How are you figuring this out? What sorts of thresholds are you looking at? How are you considering dialects?
EU
In principio it is wat i fa hir, spiking abaut inglish ortografie reform. Mas dans les otres indo-europano linguas (ou ai toujours una manal et una female form) ai ojurdui la tentative de pro exemplo dir "die sprecher und sprecherinnen" (the speeker and "speekeresses" (feemale)), "die sprecher/innen") ou in franciano "les parleurs et les parleuses", ou in portugalian "os locutores e locutoras", mi resous la problem in mai mod. Si mi diciera "los mozos y las mozas (o "l@s moz@s) scribe no ben inglish", mi spik af el ortografie, mas si mi preguntas porkee mi scribe "l@s moz@s", comenzamos ablar también de la gener...

La nomes proprios is la mais locale possibles, por isso la cidi Munik si chama Minga, ki é como la bavaros, la localis, chamam su cidi. Das hat auch la fortail ki man in Italia a zugbilee coupe nach Monaco und na tat da hin go, stad nach Minga (München), o la contrar, wail in italiano Minga auch la nome Monaco hat...

The internacionalizacion is na sufixes.

HS
In principle it is wat i'm doing heer, talking about inglishe spelling reform. But in other indo-europano languages (ware thare is usualy a male and a feemale form) thare is nowadays the attempt to write and say "die sprecher und sprecherinnen" (the speeker and "speekeresses" (feemale)), "die sprecher/innen"), or in franciano "les parleurs et les parleuses", or in portugaliano "os locutores e locutoras", i solv the problem my way. If i wrote "the steward/esses dont spel wel", i'd be talking about spelling, but if yu ask me wy i'm writing that funny way, we start talking about gender too, that is, about grammar...

Propper names ar the most local as possible, wich is wy the city of Munich is calld Minga, wich is how bavarians, the locals, call it in thare dialect. This has also the advantage that in Italia yu dont run the risk of buying a ticket to the wrong place, wen yu buy a ticket to 'Monaco' - in italian Monaco and Minga ar both calld 'Monaco'...

The internationalization is on the suffixes.

User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1490
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen » 17 Jul 2018 15:09

Axiem wrote:
16 Jul 2018 23:47
Spelling 'eeven, u, spel, caracter, hav'
These are illogical spellings.
No, as far as I can tell, they seem to follow quite logically from the principles presented for this reform. I don't really agree with those principles myself, but simply going "nuh-uh" isn't going to convince anyone here at the big kids' sandbox.
The thing is, I don't see how they're logical. Take for instance, the letter "e". In the first word presented, when doubled it's /i/, but in the second case, it's /ɪ/ or /ə/ depending; but then in the third word, it's /ɛ/.
Doubled, it's /i/; single, it's /ɛ/ when stressed and /ɪ/ or /ə/ (depending on dialect) when unstressed. I don't see anything particularly illogical about that. Like okay, maybe if you were designing a system completely from scratch, then using <ee> for /i/ might be a bit weird, but IMO, when English already has that as a perfectly regular spelling rule, then it makes sense to keep it.

You do realize that for quite a lot of people they aren't, right?
That's my point. Any attempt at spelling "reform" will pick some set of pronunciation and conform to that, which will end up being exceedingly problematic as soon as you start going outside the many, many dialects that don't conform to that pronunciation.
Quite a lot of languages have standard pronunciations that most dialects don't conform to; hell, the Finnish standard is an artificial mixture that doesn't match any single dialect. I haven't noticed that being "exceedingly problematic" - in terms of learning to read at least, it in fact seems to be quite the opposite.

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Axiem » 17 Jul 2018 17:33

Zé do Rock wrote:
17 Jul 2018 10:36
in stressd position
Is stress denoted in the reform in any way? Or is that just something that readers have to magically be able to know? If the latter, then how is this reform any better than the current system whereby readers have to magically know how to pronounce words?
a person who's never seen or herd the word 'event' wont know how to pronounce it: eevent, evvent or i'vent?
Assuming I can decipher your reform, I've heard all three of those pronunciations for the same word. So that means if someone learned it one way and then someone who pronounces it differently writes it down, the first person won't be able to understand it even though it's the same word.
it is the fenommenon of a cleer minority
Every sound change is the phenomenon of a minority, especially in English.
limmited geograficly
Not as limited as you might think; I've encountered it in various places around America.
So we cant change this area, since watever yu say wont be considderd wrong. It's not an ideal solution, but thare wouldnt be enny.
(The ideal solution is to allow different words to be different words and not try to reform spelling)
This is the same as if yu moved into a house in ruins
Except English isn't in ruins. A more apt metaphor would be moving into an old house with an immense amount of character and eccentricities, but is in its current state still perfectly capable of being a house without the need to repair anything. And, if you do try to "repair" anything, you stand just a good a chance at making it terrible.
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Axiem » 17 Jul 2018 17:41

Zé do Rock wrote:
17 Jul 2018 14:51
In certan cases, yes.
And I find that far more problematic. I want the same word to be spelled the same regardless of dialect. Or regardless of position in the sentence (cf. "the", which changes pronunciation depending on the words around it).
So i hav a sistem for europan, and i decided to use it in all languages
So, we're no longer talking about a spelling reform anymore. It sounds more and more like this is a personal quest to make English conform to your native language.
The name of the cuntry is the original name
Original name according to whom? I'm thinking of things like Taiwan, where the name of the place is contested, and picking one means picking sides in large geopolitical debates.
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Axiem » 17 Jul 2018 17:43

Xonen wrote:
17 Jul 2018 15:09
Doubled, it's /i/
Yes, that's fair.
single, it's /ɛ/ when stressed and /ɪ/ or /ə/ (depending on dialect) when unstressed
So, is stress marked? Or am I supposed to be familiar with the word already to know where the stress goes?

Also, I thought the point of the exercise was to remove the "depending on dialect" bit.
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock » 17 Jul 2018 23:35

Axiem wrote:
17 Jul 2018 17:33

Is stress denoted in the reform in any way? Or is that just something that readers have to magically be able to know? If the latter, then how is this reform any better than the current system whereby readers have to magically know how to pronounce words?
REFOR

On sait pas toujours kel silab est accentuee, mais laccentuacion est frékement plus cler. Tome la palabra en tu sentenza 'denoted': kem le, sab ki a pronúncia mais provavil da palavra é do jeito ki ela é di fato pronunciada, mais eli nunca pod tar seguro, porkê podia ser tamen /'di:nout@d/ ou /'dEnout@d/. Im HS is es 100% sicher, es kann nur sein wie es is. Ou le mot 'reform': probablemente /ri'form/, mais il pourrait etre oci /'ri:form/ ou /'rEform/ - mucha estrangeros que aprenden la lengua parte del principio que "re" es átono, y por eso dicen /ri'leitiv/ para 'relative'. Isso nao pod acontecer no HS, porkê si screv "rellativ". Wie ich sagte, wenn du in der TS die hunderte muster lernst und sie verwendest, kriegst du 50% der wörter richtig (aber nur durch zufall) und 50% falsch. En HS, si tu aprens lee regles ee lee model, tu obtiens 50% dee mots correctment (et tu sais en avance ke tu es correct), 30% correct sans etre sur sils sont correctes, et 20% faux. Y eso incluye la accentuación. Nao é perfeito, mais muito melhor.

Ich könnte dir mein system vorstellen, das is zimlich alles gedeckt, aber dann wirst du jammern, uh, das is so schwer zu lernen. Tu as une bonne idee del ortograf, peutetre tu a mis bocou défort pour laprendre ou peutetre tu as une bonne memoir visuel ou lee deux, alors tu as un avantaj sur bocou de jens ki ont dee problemes avec lortograf, ee pourcoi tu devrais perdre cet avantaj?

HS

Yu dont know all the time wich vowel is stressd, but stress is freequently cleerer. Take for instance the word in your sentence 'denoted': who reeds it and knoes all the patterns, wil guess that the most likely pronunciation of the word is the way it is actualy pronounced, but he can never be sure, it could also be /'di:nout@d/ or /'dEnout@d/. In HS it is 100% safe, it can only be as it is. Or the word 'reform': probbably /ri'form/, but it could also be /ri:form/ or /'rEform/ - menny foreners who lern the language take it for granted that 're' is unstressd, and say /ri'leitiv/ for 'relative'. This cant happen in HS, ware the word is speld 'rellativ', and since dubble consonants only come after a stressd vowel, it becomes cleer how to pronounce it, and if yu heer it, yu know how to spel it - it has to be with 2 L. As i sed, wen yu lern in TS the hundreds of patterns and aply them, yu get 50% of the words rite (but only by chance - yu never know if the word obeys the pattern) and 50% wrong. In HS, if yu lern the rules and the patterns, yu get 50% of the words rite (and yu know in advance that they'r rite), 30% yu get rite without being sure, and 20% wrong. And that includes stress. It isnt perfect, but much better.

I cüd prezent u mi sistem that cuvers all problems, but then u'l critisìz, öö, that is dificult tu réd. U hav a güd ìdéa of speling, máby u'v püt a lot of efert tu lern it or máby u hav a güd vizhual memory, or bóth, so u hav an advantaj on meny uther péple hö hav problems with spelling, and wi shüd u lös this advantaj?

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock » 18 Jul 2018 00:08

Axiem wrote:
17 Jul 2018 17:33

Not as limited as you might think; I've encountered it in various places around America.
http://loststates.blogspot.com/2011/04/ ... -same.html

EU

Casa in ruinas: ce ha no problemas con el ortografie, e pensa no ki la casa ist in ruinas. Mi ja untarichtete oft inglishe pro auslandis, mi ja erlebte com inglishe nativo spikis had non idee com oni prononce la nom af a citi in su nehe, manche profesis constatirten na hai alta ki lis ir leben long a word falsli prononcirten, mi waiss dass inglishe scolis 3 jare brauken um ainigamaszen scribe zu can, werend la finnis ain jar brauk - e den can dedica ir zeit den reali wichtige dinge. Pour mi tout sa ist terible, ou auminos super negatif, pour toi ist la meilleur des mondes, et mi cre no ki nus alons entra in acordo sur ce tema. Vamos concordar ki nosotros can no concordar in ese punt.

HS

House in ruins: yu dont hav problems with the spelling and dont think the house is in ruins. I offen gave english classes for foreners, i offen expeerienced that inglishe nativ speekers had no idea on how the name of a town in thare rellativ naborhood is pronounced, some professors hav discuvverd that they had pronounced a word wrongly thare whole lives (becaus of the weerd spelling), i know that anglo pupils need 3 yeers to aquire a certan litracy, for wich finnish pupils need less than a yeer - and then they can deddicate thare studdy to things that realy matter. For me all that is terrible, or at leest quite neggativ, for yu it meens the best of worlds, and i dont see that we'r reech an agreement on this. Lets agree that we dont agree.

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: How deranged is the English spelling system?

Post by Zé do Rock » 18 Jul 2018 02:46

Axiem wrote:
17 Jul 2018 17:41

And I find that far more problematic. I want the same word to be spelled the same regardless of dialect. Or regardless of position in the sentence (cf. "the", which changes pronunciation depending on the words around it).

REF

Se você prefere o sistema que tem menos variants, você tem que optar pelo HS. TS hat vil mer varianten, wie favor/favour, centre/center, apologize/apologise (HS hat nur favor, center und apollogize).

HS

If yu prefer the sistem with fewer variants, yu hav to opt for HS. TS (traditional spelling) has much mor variants, as favor/favour, centre/center, apologize/apologise (HS has only favor, center and apollogize).
So, we're no longer talking about a spelling reform anymore. It sounds more and more like this is a personal quest to make English conform to your native language.
REF

Je sui brasili. Cuando digo que la capital russki debría se llamar Maskva en todo el mundo, como los russis lo dicen, o que Noruega debria se llamar Norge, como los norgis llaman su país, tu dices que estoy tratando de brasilianizar el mundo? Ki lojica perversa é essa?

HS

I'm brazili. Wen i say that the russki cappital should be calld Maskva in the whole world (braziliano portugaliano Moscou), as the russis call it, and that Norway should be calld Norge, as the norgis call it (brazilis call it Noruega), yu say i'm trying to brazilianize the world? Wat kind of sik logic is this?
Original name according to whom? I'm thinking of things like Taiwan, where the name of the place is contested, and picking one means picking sides in large geopolitical debates.
REF

Länder die nich das römische alfabeet verwenden, werden so genannt, wie's die alte kolonialmacht das land nennt. Sil y avait pa un pouvoir colonial, pren le nom inglish. Como Taiwan no tiene un pasado colonial, queda como en inglish: Taiwan, y como alternativa menos utilizada, República China. Si você nao ta di acordo, tenta mudar o inglish oficial i eu mudo di acordo.

Das mit der kolonialmacht hat natürlich nix damit zu tun, das ich für kolonialismus wär, aber da gibt es sonst zuvile transkriptionen, und meistens präsentiren sich solche länder in der welt (z.b. UNO) mit solchen namen, z.b. Algerie wie im francian, und nich etwa Al Jaza'ir, Al Dzayir oder Al Dschasa'ir.

HS

Cuntries that dont use the roman alfabet ar named as the old colonial power calls it. If thare was no colonial power, take the inglishe name. As Taiwan doesnt hav a colonial past, it remanes as in inglish: Taiwan, and as a less used alternativ, Republic of China. If yu dont agree, try to modify the oficial inglish and i'l follow.

The rule with the colonial power doesnt meen that i'm for colonialism, of course, but the fact is that usualy thare ar too menny transcriptions, and mostly thees cuntries present to the world with those names (for example UN), for instance Algerie as in francian, and not Al Jaza'ir, Al Dzayir or Al Dschasa'ir.

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Axiem » 18 Jul 2018 05:11

Zé do Rock wrote:
18 Jul 2018 00:08
i dont see that we'r reech an agreement on this. Lets agree that we dont agree.
Then don't randomly quote me to drag me into a conversation to faun over your spelling/grammar reform.
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1490
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen » 18 Jul 2018 19:09

Axiem wrote:
17 Jul 2018 17:43
single, it's /ɛ/ when stressed and /ɪ/ or /ə/ (depending on dialect) when unstressed
So, is stress marked? Or am I supposed to be familiar with the word already to know where the stress goes?
Well, it's not my reform, so *shrug*... But stress in English is often at least sort of predictable based on the shape of the word, so having vowel letters be pronounced differently based on it isn't a completely unreasonable idea.

Also, I thought the point of the exercise was to remove the "depending on dialect" bit.
Eh, I suppose one could decree one of those pronunciations to be nonstandard; this just happens to be a case where it doesn't really matter.

Axiem wrote:
18 Jul 2018 05:11
Zé do Rock wrote:
18 Jul 2018 00:08
i dont see that we'r reech an agreement on this. Lets agree that we dont agree.
Then don't randomly quote me to drag me into a conversation to faun over your spelling/grammar reform.
Nobody's "dragged you to fawn over" anything, as far as I can tell; someone disagreed with an opinion you'd expressed here and tried to engage in a discussion about it. I'm not saying it was necessarily a very good attempt at discussing the subject - especially since the original discussion had already died down several months earlier - but if you weren't interested in continuing to talk about it, then the simplest thing to do would be to not respond at all. Or post a one-liner to the effect of "the original discussion has died down months ago, not interested in necroing it". Or something. Save both yourself and others here some trouble by not choosing to fire off an unnecessarily hostile response and then complaining about how you were "dragged" to the thread to write it.

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Axiem » 19 Jul 2018 22:34

Xonen wrote:
18 Jul 2018 19:09
Or something.
Fair, I could have just ignored it. But I also find the technique of "quote someone who clearly disagrees with me to argue with them and then say 'Let's just agree to disagree' when they continue to articulate their position" to also be annoying. If you want to engage someone based on something they posted, cool, but then don't suddenly be like "oh, this discussion has no point" when you started it. 🤷🏼‍♀️
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock » 20 Jul 2018 03:49

Axiem wrote:
19 Jul 2018 22:34
Xonen wrote:
18 Jul 2018 19:09
Or something.
Fair, I could have just ignored it. But I also find the technique of "quote someone who clearly disagrees with me to argue with them and then say 'Let's just agree to disagree' when they continue to articulate their position" to also be annoying. If you want to engage someone based on something they posted, cool, but then don't suddenly be like "oh, this discussion has no point" when you started it. 🤷🏼‍♀️
RE

Mencionar augen i discutir cum eli é u sentidu deci fórum, eu ja mencionei várius nu fórum, as vezis concordandu i as veis discordandu, i issu é u ki todu mundu fais akí nu fórum. Oft können fruchtbare diskussionen darüber entsteen. Mai si kelcun di ke mon sistem consider pa lee dialect, je di, non, il consider pa lee dialect, il est basee sur lee deu standar. Tu dices que no ay standars. Eu splicu purkê eu axu ki tem standard i você continua dizendu ki num tem. Du sagst unser sisteem is nich perfekt, daher bleibst du liber beim TS. Je di ke notre sistem est pas parfai, mai bocou mieu ke TS. Y tu continuas deciendo, "tu sistema no es perfecto, por eso no lo quiero". Intaum ta, eu só possu concordar, você num ker i prontu. Nosso sistema num é perfeitu, i nem pod ser, cum essa língua, i si issu é uma razaum pra você num kerer eli, intaum ta. Was kann ich sonst noch sagen? Ou can jexplic con devrai apelee la capital russki de Maskva, com lee rusis dis, tu di ke jéssey de brasilianisee lee sistem dés ôtre lang. Yo no veo la lojica. Ay discusiones que pueden ir por anhos y ser frutíferas, otras no lo son. É comu si a jent tiveci acelerandu, fazendu muintu barulhu, mais a marxa ta nu pontu mortu. Ich hab es so geseen und offensichtlich Xonen auch.

HS

Quoting sum-one and discussing with him is the sense of this forum, i quoted varius peeple in this forum, sumtimes agreeing, sumtimes not agreeing, and thats wat evrybody dus in this forum. Offen fertile discussions can emerge from it. But if sum-one ses that our sistem dusnt considder the dialects, i say, no, it dusnt, it is based on stardards. Yu say thare ar no standards. I explane wy i think thare ar standards, yu keep saying thare ar no standards. Yu say our sistem isnt perfect, wich is wy yu prefer TS. I say our sistem isnt perfect, but much better than TS. Yu keep saying, "your sistem isnt perfect, wich is wy i prefer TS. So be it, i can only agree, yu dont want it and thats it. Our sistem isnt perfect, it cant be with this language, and if thats a reeson for yu not to want it, thats it. Wat else can i say? Or i explane that we should call the russki cappital Maskva, as the russis say it, and yu say i'm trying to brazilianize the sistems of uther languages. I dont see the logic. Thare ar discussions that can go for yeers and be fertile, uthers arnt. It is as if we wer accellerating, making a lot of noise, but the geer is in neutral, the car dusnt move. I saw it that way and seemingly Xonen too.

User avatar
Axiem
sinic
sinic
Posts: 394
Joined: 10 Sep 2016 06:56

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Axiem » 20 Jul 2018 05:03

I don't see that as an accurate description of the conversation. As well, not everyone on this forum is male; please don't assume that I am or that anyone else is.

That all said, I've no real interest in discussing the topic further. Have fun! 💁🏼‍♀️
Conworld: Mto
:con: : Kuvian

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock » 20 Jul 2018 10:16

Axiem wrote:
20 Jul 2018 05:03
I don't see that as an accurate description of the conversation. As well, not everyone on this forum is male; please don't assume that I am or that anyone else is.

That all said, I've no real interest in discussing the topic further. Have fun! 💁🏼‍♀️
EU

El unico caso vo mi vid a "manalisacion" is la vord 'him' dopo 'sum-one'. Si inglishe havau a neutro pronome mi tacau dat, ma lu ha no, e so normalik oni take he/him ma vole no sei muslik a man, dat is in ta fal a pronome ki vale pro la do gener. Mi canau take 'li' de main europan, dat is a neutrale pronom, ma den yu vou cuestiona mi wai mi trai brazilianize la lingua sted spik abaut la tema de ta trad, la reform af inglish ortografie...

HS

The only case ware i see a masculinization is the word 'him' after 'sum-one'. If inglishe had a neutral pronoun, i'd hav taken that, but it dusnt, and so normaly one takes 'he/him', wich in this case isnt necessarily a man, it is a pronoun that in such cases has to work for both genders. I could take 'li' from my europan, thats a neutral pronoun, but then u'd ask me wy i'm trying to brazilianize the language insted of talking about the subject of this thred, the reform of inglish orthografy...

User avatar
Xonen
moderator
moderator
Posts: 1490
Joined: 16 May 2010 00:25

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Xonen » 20 Jul 2018 15:03

Zé do Rock wrote:
20 Jul 2018 03:49
Or i explane that we should call the russki cappital Maskva
That is a quite frankly terrible idea for so many reasons. [:S] First of all, all languages have their own names for other countries and their major cities; it's just a part of the language, like naming any other important concept. Essentially, you're trying to erode some unique features of the English lexicon, which 1) has nothing to do with spelling, as such, 2) is kind of vaguely offensive both towards English-speakers and the speakers of other languages who don't want this kind of "help", and 3) makes it difficult to understand what you're saying.

Also, "russki" in English is a cold-war-era ethnic slur - even if something is a direct borrowing from another language, it doesn't mean it has the same connotations! So that's another reason to stick to actual English.

I saw it that way and seemingly Xonen too.
Hmm, my understanding was that Axiem's tone didn't suggest much genuine willingness to actually discuss the subject and that you, upon realizing that, decided to call it quits. Now I'm no longer so sure. In any case, though, I do suggest the two of you just drop it.

Zé do Rock wrote:
20 Jul 2018 10:16
If inglishe had a neutral pronoun, i'd hav taken that, but it dusnt
It does: the pronoun they is perfectly acceptable to use in reference to a single person, especially after an indefinite pronoun like "someone". And the usage in other contexts is spreading as well, as people are becoming more aware of the need for a gender-neutral pronoun.

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1621
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Salmoneus » 20 Jul 2018 15:36

Zé do Rock wrote:
20 Jul 2018 10:16
The only case ware i see a masculinization is the word 'him' after 'sum-one'. If inglishe had a neutral pronoun, i'd hav taken that, but it dusnt, and so normaly one takes 'he/him'
No, one does not. If one does, one is likely to be accused of being greatly offensive. I assume this was unintentional.


Then again, given how arrogant you'd have to be to make your whole thing on this board be insisting that our* language isn't good enough for you and we ought to improve it for you, and then forcing us to wear out our eyes trying to pick out meaning from that unintelligible and hideous 'reform' if we want to discuss it with you - let alone the arrogance of renaming every place and people in the world with no concern either for the real words in English or for the wishes of the people who live there, even when doing so is obviously offensive (I'm sorry, "slavski cuntries"!? Just a warning there, that's a level of sounding-horrifically-racist that'll get you banned from a lot of places) - and let alone the arrogance of assuming that everyone here is male, when you're talking to a woman, and then responding to her politely telling you not to do that by you lecturing her about what words mean in her language, which you're not fluent in...

... there's a level of 'unintentional' obliviousness that becomes offensiveness through negligence.



*'we' there being 'English speakers on the board', not 'board members' - obviously there are many posters here who have other languages too.

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock » 21 Jul 2018 19:43

Xonen wrote:
20 Jul 2018 15:03

That is a quite frankly terrible idea for so many reasons. [:S] First of all, all languages have their own names for other countries and their major cities; it's just a part of the language, like naming any other important concept. Essentially, you're trying to erode some unique features of the English lexicon, which 1) has nothing to do with spelling, as such, 2) is kind of vaguely offensive both towards English-speakers and the speakers of other languages who don't want this kind of "help", and 3) makes it difficult to understand what you're saying.
RE

Geografic names - eu num sei comu é nus States nu momentu, mais eu ja vi im muintu aeroportu mundu afora us nomi jeograficu scritu na lingua ki si fala na sidad pra ond u aviaum vai, i muintu mapa ki screv u nomi du país (o da sidad) na língua du paiz. Oft kommt es mit einer übersetzung unten, vor allem wenn der name so verschiden is, das man es nich versteen könnte, aber nich immer. Tu consider sa ofensif? Quizás si, pero yo no, y no conozco a nadie que se a pronunciado contra ese fenómeno.

Nu alemaum antigament si screvia Neu York i Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika ou VSA, agora si screv New York i USA. Jemand hat damit begonnen, und immer mer leute folgten, bis es zur norm geworden is. War das beleidigend für die deutshen? Peutetre pour kelkes un, y a toujour dee jen ki em pa le chanj, mai la majoritee a pa dee problem avec sa, si non el le farai pa. O Canada, Cuba y Nicaragua: primeru si screvia Canada, Cuba y Nicaragua, mais xegandu nu fim du seclu 19, tev jent ki comessou a screver Kanada i Kuba, im part tamen Nikaragua. Aber jetz schreiben immer mer wider Cuba, und immer Nicaragua, nur Kanada bleibt Kanada. Ofensif pour lés alman éman du C, ofensif pour lés alman éman du K? Estamos siendo siempre ofensivos a una parte de la populación, independentemente de como escrevimos? Bom, si todu mundu kizer si sentir ofendidu, pur mim ki seja, mais eu num axu issu uma pozissaum saudaviu. Ich würd sagen, um ideologische krige zu vermeiden, sollte ma jedem überlassen, wie er schreiben will. Ich schreibe Canada, Cuba und Nicaragua, aber wenn jemand Kanada, Kuba und Nikaragua oder wie's momentan meistens gehandhabt wird, Kanada, Kuba/Cuba und Nicaragua - dann soll es das tun. Jem pa can lee jen on tous dee vetmen noir ou gri en iver, sa me deranj, mais encor je croi ke cest le droi de chacun de sabiyer com il veu. Como también no me gustan las burcas, pero creo que todos debrían tener el derecho de vestirla.

A propózitu, tem muinta sidad aleman (i eu suponhu ki du mundu todu) ki nem um nomi ingleis, comu Dantwich pra Danzig, Dinkelspithel pra Dinkelsbühl, Hamburgh pra Hamburg, Lipswick pra Leipzig, Mayence pra Mainz. Ich kannte dise inglishe versionen nich, kaum ein deutsher kennt sie und die meisten inglishesprecher vermutlich auch nich. Eske je devrai encor voir la list de nons inglish avan décrir un seul non jeografic? Tu le conai tous, ou tu chec toujour see list?

HS

I dont no how it is in the States (or UK, or watevver) at the moment, but i'v seen in quite a few areports sumware in the world the geografic names ritten in the language of the citty ware the plane is hedding to, and thare ar mor and mor maps riting the names of cuntrys and cittys in the language of the named cuntry. Offen thare is a translation in smaller letters under it, especialy for cuntrys that hav a very difrent name, but sumtimes thare isnt. Do u considder that ofensiv? Maybe u do, i dont no, but i dont, and i dont no enny peeple who do, except peeple that want to keep the language "pure", watevver that meens.

In the old times in german they speld Neu York and rote Vereinigte Staaten von Amerika or VSA, nowadays they rite New York and USA. Sumbody (like me) started with it, mor and mor peeple folloed until it became the standard. Was it ofensiv for the germans? Maybe for a few of them, thare ar evryware peeple who dont like enny changes, but the majority didnt hav problems with it, utherwize they wouldnt do it. Or Canada, Cuba and Nicaragua: first they speld Canada, Cuba and Nicaragua, but by the end of the 19th century sum peeple started spelling Kanada and Kuba, and offen eeven Nikaragua. Now they'r spelling agen mor and mor Cuba, and always Nicaragua, only Kanada remanes Kanada. Ofensiv for the peeple who like C, ofensiv for the peeple who like K? Ar we always ofensiv for one or the uther part of the population, independently of the way we spel geografic names? Wel, if evrybody wants to be ofended, so be it, but in my opinnion this isnt a helthy position. I'd say, to avoid ideological wars, we should let evrybody spel as they want, eeven if we dont like the resulting forms. I spel Canada, Cuba and Nicaragua, no matter in wich language, but if sum-one wants to spel Kanada, Kuba and Nikaragua, or as it is the standard at the moment, Kanada, Cuba/Kuba and Nikaragua, they should do it. I dont like the fact that so menny peeple hav blak or dark clothes in the winter, it disturbs me, stil i think evryone should hav the rite to ware watevver they like. As i dont like burkas, and stil i think that peeple should hav the rite to ware them, if they like.

By the way, thare ar menny german cittys (and from menny uther cuntrys, i guess) that hav a specific inglishe name, as Dantwich for Danzig, Dinkelspithel for Dinkelsbühl, Hamburgh for Hamburg, Lipswick for Leipzig, Mayence for Mainz. I didnt no thees inglishe versions, i dout germans no them and i guess eeven most inglishe nativ speekers dont. Should i chek the name list for all cuntrys and reegions and cittys, befor i rite enny of them down? Do u do that, or do u no all the inglishe names?

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock » 22 Jul 2018 10:49

Xonen wrote:
20 Jul 2018 15:03

Also, "russki" in English is a cold-war-era ethnic slur - even if something is a direct borrowing from another language, it doesn't mean it has the same connotations! So that's another reason to stick to actual English.
The 60s and 70s wer a time of lifting bans: wimmen wer alowd to hav a drivers licence or getting a job without the autorization of thare husbands, in the USA blaks wer alowd to sit beside wites in the bus and do evrything wites wer alowd to do, homosexuals wer alowd to liv thare lives the way they liked, cupples didnt hav to marry to hav sex, etc. I thaut it was the beginning of a glorius era of freedom. But it was the peek. Since the 80s new bans started popping up, this time not so much on sexual issues, but on quite a few uther things. Now smokers hav to hide in sum cuntrys, to "protect" non smokers and eeven uther smokers (in Bayern, Bavaria, they'r not alowd to meet in a smokers club and smoke), thare ar mor and mor bans on alcohol - i lost my drivers licence and the rite to ride a bicicle, maybe forevver, becaus i was caut drunk on my bike - and so the population is "protected" agenst me, since in Deutshland 1.36 person di evry yeer becaus of a drunk cyclist (deths by sober car drivers in a yeer: 3,000). In the USA thare ar bans on deodorant and parfume, "to protect" all the peeple who dont like deodorant or parfume. In menny cittys of the world it is forbidden to eet in the public transport, to "protect" peeple agenst food smel. In sum cuntrys the burca has been forbidden, so thare is a minnimum And a maximum of cloths u'r alowd to ware - to "protect" peeple who feel disturbd by the site of them. In France and sum uther cuntrys prostitution has been band, now they'r taking nudes from museums to "protect" wimmen from being seen as an object. In sum cuntrys and reegions u hav to sine a declaration to sho that both sexual partners want to change thare position in bed, to "protect" wimmen from havving unwanted sex practices. Eeven if hundreds of prom wimmen sined a declaration agenst all this, becaus it destroys evry naturality in human relationships.

And the bans aply for the language too. In german the word "maler" ("painter/s") meens both sexes, but thare is a suffix for the feemale form, -in, like -ess (stewardess) in inglish, and u can ad it to enny word that can hav a femminin form (maybe u no all that, but maybe sum uther reeders dont). My partneress is the directoress of one of the biggest museums in Deutshland, and she gets a crisis evrytime she gets a letter protesting that in the explanations about the artists and artistesses it is ritten "the painters of the 18th century" - it should be "the painters and painteresses of the 18th century". And thare ar bans on words like 'neger', becaus it should be "blak", but then thare ar peeple who try to prohibbit peeple of saying 'blak' too, becaus this cullor has a neggativ conotation - the cullor of morning, in deutsh it also meens "ileegal", in Brazil it also meens "quite bad" (the situation heer is quite blak). So peeple say "cullord", wich is tecnicly quite a rong expression, since wite is a mix of all cullors, but blak is the absence of cullor - if sum peeple ar cullord, its actualy the wites. And thare is a difrence between neegro and blak, for instance tuaregis or tamilis ar blak, but they'r not neegros, they'r just very suntand wites. In quite a few cuntrys u cant say "gipsis" ennymor, in Deutshland u hav to say "sinti und roma", altho the sinti dont like that expression becaus they say they dont want to be mentiond all the time together with the roma, one should say 'sinti' to them, without "and roma", and gipsy (zigeuner) is OK too, but plees not "sinti und roma". U'r not suposed to say eskimo ennymor, u should say inuit, but saying inuit and meening all eskimos is discriminating agenst all eskimos that arnt inuits - this is like calling all europis "sverigis" or "polskis", or, worse, "germans". And wen i ask peeple of gipsy ancestry wat ancestry they hav, usualy i get the anser "gipsy" (at leest in Deutshland, and in Brazil thare isnt eeven anuther expression for them). So we'r leeving the trueth behind us for the sake of "protecting" peeple, who offen dont want to be protected.

If political corectness had at leest a trace of consistency, it would ban a word like russian too, since it is offen used in a neggativ sense - few cuntrys in the world ar so offen critticized in inglishe language as Russia. And the word "german", since it is offen used in a neggativ sense too - they'r cold, they'r killers, they'r fat and ugly (as we see in american war movies). We shouldnt eeven use the deutshe word for them, since the word has offen a neggativ conotation too: thare was eeven a (deutshe) woman who aplied for divorce from her husband on the grounds that he was "too deutsh". The slavis should stop calling the deutshis "nemci" or alike, since it meens "the dum ones", and we should stop calling the slavis the slavis, since the word cums from the latin word for slaves, or bulgarians bulgarians, since the word meens "vulgar", and it wasnt certanly used all the time in a positiv sense. Brazilis ar intrinsicly corupt, they kil thare own children, so the word should be forbidden too. The portugalis ar the stupid peeple in enny braziliano joke, so ban it too, as we should ban the words "polskis, iris, belgis, austris", who ar victims of jokes in uther cuntrys. USis (or "americans") ar offen critticized for being ignorant, or arrogant towards the rest of the world, so agen, the word should be forbidden too. And i dont think in the end enny nationality wil be left, since at leest nabors offen talk in a neggativ way about thare nabors. So how should we call peeple from uther cuntrys? And eeven if we create new names for all of them, soon thare wil be sum-one using the word in a neggativ sense, so should we create new names for cuntrys and nationalitys evry week, becaus we found out that sum-one used it in a neggativ sense?

If u'r talking as a normal member givving su opinnion, i acnollege it, eeven if i dont agree. It would meen that i'd keep using the word, becaus for me it is hard to imagine that russkis ar ofended wen we call them by the name they call themselvs - if sum russis protested heer, i'd stop it and call them "peeple challenged by the cold", and ukrainis "peeple challenged by the peeple who ar challenged by the cold". If u'r talking as a modrator and u mite kik me off the forum for using expressions u dont agree with, plees rite a list of all forbidden words in this forum and i'l try to avoid them. I just dont like to speek and rite in feer, not noing wat to use and wat not, as if i was in Norde Korea. My parents wer pius baptists who forbid all sorts of "dirty" and "haf dirty" (i wasnt suposed to use eeven an expression like "go suk soks", becaus it was a ufemism for sumthing much "worse"), so i hate enny sort of language poleecing and i advocate tollerance (thare ar thousands of things that disturb me sumhow, but i'm agenst banning them), stil i'l comply with it, since i find this forum intresting and would like to stay.

Zé do Rock
cuneiform
cuneiform
Posts: 135
Joined: 12 Jul 2018 18:22

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Zé do Rock » 22 Jul 2018 13:30

Salmoneus wrote:
20 Jul 2018 15:36

No, one does not. If one does, one is likely to be accused of being greatly offensive. I assume this was unintentional.

Then again, given how arrogant you'd have to be to make your whole thing on this board be insisting that our* language isn't good enough for you
EU

La House Stile is no mai creacion, is la rezult af a plebisito na TESS, The English Spelling Society, vo mi supone ki plu ki 95% du membris is nativo spikis. So lis mei faz a campania tu beteriz el inglish ortografie, ma no nenativo spikis? Wai la membris dat is nativo spikis electou un autlandi pro su directorum - dat was a stupido desicion? E wat yu sei abaut naijiris o malaysis, lis mei critik el inglishe lingua, o solo la naciones vo inglish is el unico lingua?

Mi scrivou ale mai bukes in reformee deutsh (e "brazileis"), e somwen mi eliminou ale gramatica du deutshe lingua (nixe gener, cazos o conjugaciones), et i was nominee bai la deutshe prezidenti pro la Prix af Inovacion, et i winou diverso literatura prix. La deutshis is plu tolerante dan el anglis? Dat is difisile tu imagin, lorske mi scriv in otre inglishe spicale forumes - nelinguisticus - e nixi ha problema co main ortografie e main otre changus. Mi expectau protestus in a "forum pro la corect uzu af inglishe lingua", mas in a forum abaut conlanges dat sonen a bit strange tu mi.

HS

The House Stile isnt my creation, it is the result of a referendum in TESS, The English Spelling Society, ware i guess that mor than 95% of members ar inglishe nativ speekers from all over the world. So they ar alowd to make a campane for improving inglishe spelling, but not non nativ speekers? Wy the nativ speeking members chose a forener to be in thare comittee, was this a stupid thing to do? Wat about naijiris or malaysis, ar they alowd to criticize the inglishe language - or eeven to be activ for its reform - or only the cuntrys ware inglish is the only language?

I rote all my books in reformd deutsh (and "brazileis"), reforming spelling and sumtimes taking all grammar from the deutshe language (no gender, no cases, no conjugations), and i was nomminated by the deutshe president for the Prize of Inovation, and i wun sevral litrature prizes. Ar deutshis mor tollerant than anglis? Hard to imagin, since i rite in uther non linguistic forums (in inglishe language) and no one has problems with my spelling and my uther changes. I'd expect protest in a "forum for the usage of correct english", but in a forum about conlangs this dus sound strange to me.

and we ought to improve it for you,
EU

Hu sei yu mus beterize lu pro mi? Mi beterize lu (auminus in mai sens), e si algi vol uza la changus, li welcom, ma certli mi critica no pople coze lis uza tradicional ortografie et/o gramatik.

HS

Who is saying u hav to improve it for me? I'm improving it (at leest in my sense), and if sum peeple want to pik up sum of the changes and use them, they'r welcum to do it, but i certanly dont criticize peeple for using traditional spelling and/or grammar.

and then forcing us to wear out our eyes trying to pick out meaning from that unintelligible and hideous 'reform'
EU

Ta forum is pleni linguas vo mi supone yu can no comprend un unico vord, e yu sei main inglish ortografie is nelerable? Wen mi looke la laste sentens, wat is so necomprendable in main inglish: la vord unintelligible, la vord is, la vord spelling, la vord inglishe, la vord my, la vord say, la vord u, la vord and? Lis izi pro normalis, ma no pro linguistis o linguis as yu?

Yu vou mei sei, "auminu la conlangis uza no su conlanges tu comunica co nu", ma wat is la sens in creating a lingua dat is non uzee pro comunicacion?

Yu eva criticou esperanto or otre conlang hir coze lu renominou geografico nomes, o yu solo critica lu wen la lingua creati take la vord ki la nativis uza? Esperanto Hungario is OK, mas europano Magyarorszag no? Is OK creating a neu nom, ma non OK taking la nome du lingua du mencionee land?

Or al is acceptable in eni conlang, ma non in un ortografie reform? Bon, OK, in ta cazo mi can nomize la HS co mai personale modo de trating geografico nomes a conlang, unu dat is fortli bazat in inglish, con a legerli diferent ortografie et a legerli diferente vocabular e gramatica wen la tema is geografico nomes.

HS

This forum is full of languages from wich i supose u dont understand a single word, and u say my inglishe spelling is unintelligible? Wen i look at the last sentence, wat is so unintelligible in my inglish: the word unintelligible, the word is, the word spelling, the word inglishe, the word my, the word say, the word u, the word and? Ar they eesy for normal peeple, but not for a linguist or language nerd like u?

U mite say, "at leest the conlangers dont use thare conlangs to comunicate with us", but wats the point of creating a language that isnt used for comunication?

Hav u evver criticized esperanto or enny uther conlang heer for renaming geografical names, or u only criticize it wen the language creator piks up the word the nativs use? Is Hungario OK, but Magyarorszag a no-go? Is it OK to create a new name, but it's not OK to pik up the name in the language of the mentiond cuntry?

Or evrything is acceptable in enny conlang, but not a spelling reform? Wel, OK, in this case i can call the HS with my personal handling of geografic names a conlang, one that is strongly based on inglish, with a slitely difrent spelling and a slitely difrent vocabulary and grammar wen it cums to geografic names.

if we want to discuss it with you - let alone the arrogance of renaming every place and people in the world with no concern either for the real words in English or for the wishes of the people who live there, even when doing so is obviously offensive (I'm sorry, "slavski cuntries"!? Just a warning there, that's a level of sounding-horrifically-racist that'll get you banned from a lot of places) - and let alone the arrogance of assuming that everyone here is male, when you're talking to a woman, and then responding to her politely telling you not to do that by you lecturing her about what words mean in her language, which you're not fluent in...
EU

Nau ven, hu profess un otre membri hir? Si mi sei "sum-one", mi spik non abaut a certo membri, dat can no bi difisile tu comprend. Si algu disaparou de mai haus et i supon un unico personi robou lu, mi sa no si a fraz as "Sum-one came into my house, he must hav cum thru the chimny" vou bi fals et/o discriminale coze mi exclude femas as posible robis, meibi lu is e yu can clarifie mi abaut lu. In el otre linguas dat i spik lu vou no bi, lorske la pronome pro "sum-one" vou bi "he", oso wen yu exclude no femas - as nixi exclude femas in Brazil wen lis sei "Os brasileiros gostam de comer carne" (Brazilis laike manja meso), meme si la vord is na manale form. In inglishe mi vi frecuentli "they" vo la vord na pre was uzee na singular, ma mi sabou no ki lu can oso bin uzee pro "sum-one". Mas encora mi havau problemas co lu, lorske mi supone dat un unico personi venou in mai haus, e no plusis, so mi supone mi vad uza "li", de main europan.

No, mi sei no tu la pople ki lis mus change su ortografie o lingua tu bin adecuato pro mi, mi solo scriv in a conlang dat is bene similare tu inglish. E meibi algi can profita de lu.

HS

Cum on, who's lecturing enny member heer? If i say 'sum-one', i'm not talking about a particcular member, that cant be so hard to understand. If sumthing disapeerd from my house and i assume that a single person stole it, i dont no if a sentence like "Sum-one came into my house, he must hav cum thru the chimny" would be rong and/or discrimminating becaus i'm excluding wimmen as possible theevs, maybe it is and u can clarify me about that. In the uther languages i speek it wouldnt, since the pronoun for "sum-one" would be "he", also if u'r not excluding wimmen - as nobody is excluding wimmen in Brazil wen they say "Os brasileiros gostam de comer carne" (Brazilians like to eet meet), eeven if the word is in the masculin form. In inglish i see offen 'they' ware befor a word in the singular was used, but i didnt no it can be used eeven for "sum-one". But i stil would hav problems with it, since i'm assuming that a single person enterd my house and not sevral, so i guess i'l use 'li', from my europan.

No, i'm not telling peeple to change thare spelling or language to sute me, i'm just riting in a conlang that is quite simmilar to inglish. And maybe sum peeple can proffit from it.


... there's a level of 'unintentional' obliviousness that becomes offensiveness through negligence.
EU

Mi supone yu corect. Mi was nowen excludet af a grup, ma pre no longo tempo mi was excludet af a linguistico grup. Coze mi had uza la vord 'teroris' e 'Saudi Arabia' na same paragraf, e somis comprendou ki mi ha sei ki ale teroris veni de Saudi Arabia. Mi ha trai explica dat i volou no sei dat, ki dat vou bin a super absurdo ding tu sei, ma lis had ja exclude mi. Pro mi dat is linguistik incuizicion (naturali la consecuenses is no so wild), mas is la svet vo mi viv, so mi mus atent. Mantene mi informee, si lu no tu mult efortu pro yu. Meme si mi acorda no ki reforming (pro self, e pro lis ki laike lu) un otre lingua is arogans.

HS

I guess u'r rite. I'm in quite a few non linguistic groups, and i was nevver excluded from a group befor, but not a long time ago i was excluded from a linguistic group. Becaus i had mentiond the words "terrorists" and "Saudi Arabia" in the same paragraf, and it seems that sum peeple, including the modrator, understood that i was saying that all terrorists cum from Saudi Arabia. I tried to explane that i certanly didnt want to say that, that it is quite an absurd thing to say, but they had alredy excluded me. For me thats linguistic inquisition (of corse the consequences arnt that terrible as in the original inquisition), but it is the world ware i liv, so i should be careful. Keep me informd, if u can be botherd. Eeven if i dont agree that reforming (for oneself and for the ones who like the idea) anuther language meens arrogance. Utherwize u'd hav to say that u speek a language devellopd by the arrogant, since neerly evry word and evry gramatical form changed, wen comparing with the old aenglisc, and sum peeple must hav started with all those changes.

User avatar
Lao Kou
korean
korean
Posts: 5640
Joined: 25 Nov 2012 10:39
Location: 蘇州/苏州

Re: English Orthography Reform

Post by Lao Kou » 22 Jul 2018 14:30

Zé do Rock wrote:
22 Jul 2018 10:49
Spoiler:
The 60s and 70s wer a time of lifting bans: wimmen wer alowd to hav a drivers licence or getting a job without the autorization of thare husbands, in the USA blaks wer alowd to sit beside wites in the bus and do evrything wites wer alowd to do, homosexuals wer alowd to liv thare lives the way they liked, cupples didnt hav to marry to hav sex, etc. I thaut it was the beginning of a glorius era of freedom. But it was the peek. Since the 80s new bans started popping up, this time not so much on sexual issues, but on quite a few uther things. Now smokers hav to hide in sum cuntrys, to "protect" non smokers and eeven uther smokers (in Bayern, Bavaria, they'r not alowd to meet in a smokers club and smoke), thare ar mor and mor bans on alcohol - i lost my drivers licence and the rite to ride a bicicle, maybe forevver, becaus i was caut drunk on my bike - and so the population is "protected" agenst me, since in Deutshland 1.36 person di evry yeer becaus of a drunk cyclist (deths by sober car drivers in a yeer: 3,000). In the USA thare ar bans on deodorant and parfume, "to protect" all the peeple who dont like deodorant or parfume. In menny cittys of the world it is forbidden to eet in the public transport, to "protect" peeple agenst food smel. In sum cuntrys the burca has been forbidden, so thare is a minnimum And a maximum of cloths u'r alowd to ware - to "protect" peeple who feel disturbd by the site of them. In France and sum uther cuntrys prostitution has been band, now they'r taking nudes from museums to "protect" wimmen from being seen as an object. In sum cuntrys and reegions u hav to sine a declaration to sho that both sexual partners want to change thare position in bed, to "protect" wimmen from havving unwanted sex practices. Eeven if hundreds of prom wimmen sined a declaration agenst all this, becaus it destroys evry naturality in human relationships.

And the bans aply for the language too. In german the word "maler" ("painter/s") meens both sexes, but thare is a suffix for the feemale form, -in, like -ess (stewardess) in inglish, and u can ad it to enny word that can hav a femminin form (maybe u no all that, but maybe sum uther reeders dont). My partneress is the directoress of one of the biggest museums in Deutshland, and she gets a crisis evrytime she gets a letter protesting that in the explanations about the artists and artistesses it is ritten "the painters of the 18th century" - it should be "the painters and painteresses of the 18th century". And thare ar bans on words like 'neger', becaus it should be "blak", but then thare ar peeple who try to prohibbit peeple of saying 'blak' too, becaus this cullor has a neggativ conotation - the cullor of morning, in deutsh it also meens "ileegal", in Brazil it also meens "quite bad" (the situation heer is quite blak). So peeple say "cullord", wich is tecnicly quite a rong expression, since wite is a mix of all cullors, but blak is the absence of cullor - if sum peeple ar cullord, its actualy the wites. And thare is a difrence between neegro and blak, for instance tuaregis or tamilis ar blak, but they'r not neegros, they'r just very suntand wites. In quite a few cuntrys u cant say "gipsis" ennymor, in Deutshland u hav to say "sinti und roma", altho the sinti dont like that expression becaus they say they dont want to be mentiond all the time together with the roma, one should say 'sinti' to them, without "and roma", and gipsy (zigeuner) is OK too, but plees not "sinti und roma". U'r not suposed to say eskimo ennymor, u should say inuit, but saying inuit and meening all eskimos is discriminating agenst all eskimos that arnt inuits - this is like calling all europis "sverigis" or "polskis", or, worse, "germans". And wen i ask peeple of gipsy ancestry wat ancestry they hav, usualy i get the anser "gipsy" (at leest in Deutshland, and in Brazil thare isnt eeven anuther expression for them). So we'r leeving the trueth behind us for the sake of "protecting" peeple, who offen dont want to be protected.

If political corectness had at leest a trace of consistency, it would ban a word like russian too, since it is offen used in a neggativ sense - few cuntrys in the world ar so offen critticized in inglishe language as Russia. And the word "german", since it is offen used in a neggativ sense too - they'r cold, they'r killers, they'r fat and ugly (as we see in american war movies). We shouldnt eeven use the deutshe word for them, since the word has offen a neggativ conotation too: thare was eeven a (deutshe) woman who aplied for divorce from her husband on the grounds that he was "too deutsh". The slavis should stop calling the deutshis "nemci" or alike, since it meens "the dum ones", and we should stop calling the slavis the slavis, since the word cums from the latin word for slaves, or bulgarians bulgarians, since the word meens "vulgar", and it wasnt certanly used all the time in a positiv sense. Brazilis ar intrinsicly corupt, they kil thare own children, so the word should be forbidden too. The portugalis ar the stupid peeple in enny braziliano joke, so ban it too, as we should ban the words "polskis, iris, belgis, austris", who ar victims of jokes in uther cuntrys. USis (or "americans") ar offen critticized for being ignorant, or arrogant towards the rest of the world, so agen, the word should be forbidden too. And i dont think in the end enny nationality wil be left, since at leest nabors offen talk in a neggativ way about thare nabors. So how should we call peeple from uther cuntrys? And eeven if we create new names for all of them, soon thare wil be sum-one using the word in a neggativ sense, so should we create new names for cuntrys and nationalitys evry week, becaus we found out that sum-one used it in a neggativ sense?

If u'r talking as a normal member givving su opinnion, i acnollege it, eeven if i dont agree. It would meen that i'd keep using the word, becaus for me it is hard to imagine that russkis ar ofended wen we call them by the name they call themselvs - if sum russis protested heer, i'd stop it and call them "peeple challenged by the cold", and ukrainis "peeple challenged by the peeple who ar challenged by the cold". If u'r talking as a modrator and u mite kik me off the forum for using expressions u dont agree with, plees rite a list of all forbidden words in this forum and i'l try to avoid them. I just dont like to speek and rite in feer, not noing wat to use and wat not, as if i was in Norde Korea. My parents wer pius baptists who forbid all sorts of "dirty" and "haf dirty" (i wasnt suposed to use eeven an expression like "go suk soks", becaus it was a ufemism for sumthing much "worse"), so i hate enny sort of language poleecing and i advocate tollerance (thare ar thousands of things that disturb me sumhow, but i'm agenst banning them), stil i'l comply with it, since i find this forum intresting and would like to stay.
Forgive me, but I don't see what any of this has to do with reforming English spelling, let alone contending with Esperanto's apparent flaws. I guess the moderators have a higher threshold of pain than I, probably rightly so (so, shut up, Lao Kou, and don't read the thread), but might we split the thread? This does not strike me as a robust debate.
道可道,非常道
名可名,非常名

Post Reply