Yay or Nay?

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Ælfwine
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 01 Aug 2018 04:35

Zekoslav wrote:
30 Jul 2018 11:17
Ælfwine wrote:
29 Jul 2018 02:44
Yay or nay:

Pelsodian my romlang builds the pluperfect like Slovene or Croatian, taking the past form of the word "to be," and adding the participle of a verb. This seems to be an areal feature.

This differs from French, which builds it with "to have," and Romanian/Portuguese, which still build it synthetically.
The reason for the different choice of the auxiliary verb is that the Slovene and Croatian l-participle is an active past (more precisely, perfect) participle, while french participle is a passive past participle. In fact, Latin had no active past participles at all, and as far as I know no Romance language has developed one of their own.

The auxiliary verb is used to give the participle person-number agreement so it can be used as a verb. Whether it agrees with the subject or the object depends on the voice of the participle. If french used only the verb "to be" as its auxiliary verb, then all tenses which use the past participle would be passive by default, as Dormouse559 said. This is not an implausible development (in fact, this is how Hindi developed split-ergativity), but Romance languages remodeled these tenses as active using the auxilliary verb "to have" - it has a subject in the Nominative case, and an object which agrees with the participle.

Eg. In French you say: J'e l'ai vu "I saw him." and Je l'ai vue "I saw her.", while in Croatian the aggreement is with the subject: Vidio sam to. "I (m.) saw that." and Vidjela sam to. "I (f.) saw that."


The fact that some intransitive verbs (in particular, verbs of movement) still use the verb "to be" is explained by the fact that they don't distinguish between active and passive voices and that they have only one argument - the past participle can only agree with the experiencer, so the intransitive auxilliary verb "to be" is a good choice of a copula. Some verbs of movement, actually, use both auxiliaries depending on whether they are used intransitively or transitively.

Eg. Je suis sorti du garage. "I went out of the garage" and J'ai sorti mon velo du garage. "I took my bike out of the garage."


In conclusion, I'd say it would be hard to develop an exact analogue of the Slavic construction in a Romance language - if there is enough contact, then maybe "to be" could be generalized with transitive verbs as well, but probably not by itself - judging from other Romance and Germanic languages, the tendency seems to be the generalization of the verb "to have".

Concerning passives, while Croatian does have a passive voice, it overwhelmingly prefers to use the reflexive pronoun in an impersonal-passive sense. The syntax of the construction is weird (the only other language I've seen that has something similar is, of all languages, Irish Gaelic!) and doesn't quite match what Hungarian does, but the absence of a designated passive voice does seem to be an areal feature.
Thanks for the explanation, Aero. It seems like "to have" is fairly well ingrained within Romance, though it is worth pointing out that both Rhetoromance and Romanian use a different auxiliary (not for passives, though!) Perhaps the lack of a passive will show up in more subtle ways. I need to think this out.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 01 Aug 2018 06:41

Ælfwine wrote:
01 Aug 2018 04:35
Thanks for the explanation, Aero.
Not really relevant, but I thought Aero was Click?

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gestaltist
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 01 Aug 2018 09:36

shimobaatar wrote:
01 Aug 2018 06:41
Ælfwine wrote:
01 Aug 2018 04:35
Thanks for the explanation, Aero.
Not really relevant, but I thought Aero was Click?
Yep. He got the wrong person.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Salmoneus » 01 Aug 2018 19:03

Zekoslav wrote:
30 Jul 2018 11:17
judging from other Romance and Germanic languages, the tendency seems to be the generalization of the verb "to have".
Just to add to this: this is a recognised ongoing trend throughout the Romance/Germanic sprachbund. "Be" was 'originally' used with all intransitives in both families, but almost all languages have been reducing its use, even in recent times.

You can see this very clearly in English by comparing secular to religious English. The KJV, many old hymns, and so on, prefer "He is risen", "I am come to [purpose]", while contemporary secular English overwhelmingly prefers "he has risen", "I have come to [purpose]" and the the like.

I wonder whether, particularly given that both 'is' and 'has' are commonly reduced to /z/, this trend will continue and we'll eventually see people expanding "he's dead" to "he has dead"...


Indeed, English even used to use 'be' with passives, where it's been replaced with 'have been'. For lo, "they are brought low" is become "they have been brought low"! ...I don't know if this likewise has a parallel in romance or not.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 01 Aug 2018 22:48

gestaltist wrote:
01 Aug 2018 09:36
shimobaatar wrote:
01 Aug 2018 06:41
Ælfwine wrote:
01 Aug 2018 04:35
Thanks for the explanation, Aero.
Not really relevant, but I thought Aero was Click?
Yep. He got the wrong person.
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Zekoslav
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Zekoslav » 02 Aug 2018 09:07

Salmoneus wrote:
01 Aug 2018 19:03
Zekoslav wrote:
30 Jul 2018 11:17
judging from other Romance and Germanic languages, the tendency seems to be the generalization of the verb "to have".
Just to add to this: this is a recognised ongoing trend throughout the Romance/Germanic sprachbund. "Be" was 'originally' used with all intransitives in both families, but almost all languages have been reducing its use, even in recent times.

You can see this very clearly in English by comparing secular to religious English. The KJV, many old hymns, and so on, prefer "He is risen", "I am come to [purpose]", while contemporary secular English overwhelmingly prefers "he has risen", "I have come to [purpose]" and the the like.

I wonder whether, particularly given that both 'is' and 'has' are commonly reduced to /z/, this trend will continue and we'll eventually see people expanding "he's dead" to "he has dead"...


Indeed, English even used to use 'be' with passives, where it's been replaced with 'have been'. For lo, "they are brought low" is become "they have been brought low"! ...I don't know if this likewise has a parallel in romance or not.
Do you think it is likely that a romance language belonging to a different sprachbund would be able to instead oust the verb "to have" in favour of the verb "to be", as Ælfwine's original idea seems to be? That didn't happen to German and Yiddish (two languages that use the former "have-perfect" as their regular past tense), according to the paper he posted. As I've already said, I think that calquing the Slavic construction would require an innovative active past participle (speaking of which, I really like Dormouse559's suggestion).

There is also the fact that Croatian seems likely to begin abandoning it's active past participle and replacing it with the passive past participle (which becomes a Romance-Germanic style "absolutive participle", used for the subject of intransitive and the object of transitive verbs). The active participle is rarely used outside of tense forms, and I recall myself having used an innovative intransitive passive participle instead of the active one, even though I've forgotten what the exact word was.

Then again, maybe I'm not the best judge of what is likely to happen in Croatian since I'm influenced by French and English a lot.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Micamo » 02 Aug 2018 12:33

Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Salmoneus » 02 Aug 2018 13:06

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
Sorry, I'm not sure I understand the question?

Do you mean would anyone object? [which would be the normal interpretation IMD but seems to require some strange assumptions]
Or do you mean would anyone have sympathy and compassion?

It seems the most likely meaning is that you're asking whether anyone would be happy - but for the record, I don't think that's a normal way to ask that question IMD ('care' almost always being negative in some way).


But if that is your question, then the answer of course is 'it depends'.
If you want to start conlanging again, and do, then that of course would be good and I - and i'm sure others - would be glad to hear it.
But if you don't want to start conlanging again and do because for some reason you feel you have to, then that would be bad and I - and doubtless most people - would be sad to hear it.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by gestaltist » 02 Aug 2018 13:09

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
Hey Micamo. I would definitely like having you around again.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Lao Kou » 02 Aug 2018 14:04

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
The obvious answer is a resounding "yes"; you are a valued member of our community and we always look forward to your projects, insights, and comments. The less-than-obvious answer is: "Why are you framing this as a pass-agg question?"
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Creyeditor » 02 Aug 2018 14:36

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
Yes, yes, yes [:)] I always loved your work
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DesEsseintes
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 02 Aug 2018 18:46

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
[<3]
Would be the best thing evar!
Lao Kou wrote:
02 Aug 2018 14:04
"Why are you framing this as a pass-agg question?"
What is a “pass-egg question”?

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Egerius » 02 Aug 2018 19:45

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
I would care, positively.
Come back to conlanging and conworlding if you have the energy and time to do so. [:)]
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 02 Aug 2018 20:04

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
If you'd like to return, I think it would be wonderful to see you back.

DesEsseintes wrote:
02 Aug 2018 18:46
Lao Kou wrote:
02 Aug 2018 14:04
"Why are you framing this as a pass-agg question?"
What is a “pass-egg question”?
I don't agree with the assessment, but I believe Lao Kou meant "passive aggressive".

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eldin raigmore
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by eldin raigmore » 02 Aug 2018 21:29

As a diagnosis (not what I think was intended), I also think “pass-agg” would have been, at best, premature.

But as a humorous exaggeration (which I thought was intended), I thought it was appropriate-ish.

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Micamo » 03 Aug 2018 14:43

I'm a great big very mentally ill baby who requires a constant stream of validation to not implode

Eldin why do you remember my April Fool's jokes from 2011
Last edited by Micamo on 03 Aug 2018 14:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by k1234567890y » 03 Aug 2018 14:44

just do conlanging again if you want to, @Micamo
...

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DesEsseintes
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by DesEsseintes » 03 Aug 2018 17:11

Micamo wrote:
03 Aug 2018 14:43
Eldin why do you remember my April Fool's jokes from 2011
Wasn’t it 2016?

Also: if you start conlanging again, I might drag Híí out of its grave and start working on it again. Psst, there might be word-final r now! (Shock! Horror!)

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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by elemtilas » 03 Aug 2018 17:17

Micamo wrote:
02 Aug 2018 12:33
Would anyone care if I started conlanging again
No wishy-washiness here: YES, I care. You've been gone a while, for whatever reasons, and are now come back. I for one would love to hear more of your stories and see you return to the discussions of the day.

Oh, and, yes: do continue with the language invention!
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Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by All4Ɇn » 08 Aug 2018 15:18

I'm currently working on figuring out the grade levels in which Ởnh·Vú speakers learn different characters and i've run into a bit of a conundrum. Typically I base them off the Chinese and Japanese grades the characters are learned in but I'm not sure what to do about the character 銀. In Chinese its learned in 4th grade while in Japan its learned in 3rd. However in Ởnh·Vú, its only used in the words 銀行 (bank) and 水銀 (mercury). Given that bank is a pretty common word, would it be too much to include this character as one learned in 5th grade, or should I hold it back until later?

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