Yay or Nay?

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 11721
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 08 Aug 2018 16:02

(Post #9999.)
All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Aug 2018 15:18
I'm currently working on figuring out the grade levels in which Ởnh·Vú speakers learn different characters and i've run into a bit of a conundrum. Typically I base them off the Chinese and Japanese grades the characters are learned in but I'm not sure what to do about the character 銀. In Chinese its learned in 4th grade while in Japan its learned in 3rd. However in Ởnh·Vú, its only used in the words 銀行 (bank) and 水銀 (mercury). Given that bank is a pretty common word, would it be too much to include this character as one learned in 5th grade, or should I hold it back until later?
I think you should be fine having this character learned later on, relatively speaking, especially if only two words in the entire language are written with it. Also, while "bank" is a common word for people in general, I think it should be taken into consideration how often children would need to write it.

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3093
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by k1234567890y » 08 Aug 2018 16:27

All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Aug 2018 15:18
I'm currently working on figuring out the grade levels in which Ởnh·Vú speakers learn different characters and i've run into a bit of a conundrum. Typically I base them off the Chinese and Japanese grades the characters are learned in but I'm not sure what to do about the character 銀. In Chinese its learned in 4th grade while in Japan its learned in 3rd. However in Ởnh·Vú, its only used in the words 銀行 (bank) and 水銀 (mercury). Given that bank is a pretty common word, would it be too much to include this character as one learned in 5th grade, or should I hold it back until later?
another choice: list it as a common character but not taught at element schools.
shimobaatar wrote:
08 Aug 2018 16:02
(Post #9999.)
All4Ɇn wrote:
08 Aug 2018 15:18
I'm currently working on figuring out the grade levels in which Ởnh·Vú speakers learn different characters and i've run into a bit of a conundrum. Typically I base them off the Chinese and Japanese grades the characters are learned in but I'm not sure what to do about the character 銀. In Chinese its learned in 4th grade while in Japan its learned in 3rd. However in Ởnh·Vú, its only used in the words 銀行 (bank) and 水銀 (mercury). Given that bank is a pretty common word, would it be too much to include this character as one learned in 5th grade, or should I hold it back until later?
I think you should be fine having this character learned later on, relatively speaking, especially if only two words in the entire language are written with it. Also, while "bank" is a common word for people in general, I think it should be taken into consideration how often children would need to write it.
10,000 posts! congrats, 霜勇者
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.

User avatar
ixals
sinic
sinic
Posts: 410
Joined: 28 Jul 2015 18:43

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by ixals » 08 Aug 2018 16:31

I know nothing about how Chinese characters are learnt, but how do speakers learn characters that aren't taught in school (I assume not every character can be taught in school)?

Concerning Ởnh·Vú: Does 銀 even need to be learnt in (primary) school? Adults probably talk enough about going to the bank and banks have a big flashing "銀行" above their entrance, children can put one and one together, right? In the end it's a combination of 金 and 艮, which children will learn how to write earlier (I assume again because they look quite easy). Also 行 is probably learnt earlier than 銀 as well, right? So children would have all they need for this character I guess?
Native: :deu:
Learning: :gbr:, :chn:, :tur:, :fra:

Zhér·dûn a tonal Germanic conlang

old stuff: Цiски | Noattȯč | Tungōnis Vīdīnōs

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3093
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by k1234567890y » 08 Aug 2018 18:11

ixals wrote:
08 Aug 2018 16:31
I know nothing about how Chinese characters are learnt, but how do speakers learn characters that aren't taught in school (I assume not every character can be taught in school)?

Concerning Ởnh·Vú: Does 銀 even need to be learnt in (primary) school? Adults probably talk enough about going to the bank and banks have a big flashing "銀行" above their entrance, children can put one and one together, right? In the end it's a combination of 金 and 艮, which children will learn how to write earlier (I assume again because they look quite easy). Also 行 is probably learnt earlier than 銀 as well, right? So children would have all they need for this character I guess?
not every character nneds to be taught, but usually students need to learn a sufficient amount of them, having a concept of reading and writing I think

students usually learn how to express their speech with certain phonemic spellings(which are never used as a major way to write in Chinese-speaking areas, but is used along with the logograms in Japanese-speaking areas. In Chinese-speaking areas, the phonemic writings are only used as an assistance for children to initiate the learning of reading) before starting to learn the logographic characters.

first children learn phonemic spellings, then they learn the logographic characters marked with how they are pronounced and how to associate the characters with their meanings.

maybe my explanation is not good enough though
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.

User avatar
All4Ɇn
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1831
Joined: 01 Mar 2014 07:19

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by All4Ɇn » 09 Aug 2018 02:57

Thanks for the replies everyone! You’ve all brought up some great points :). As someone who doesn’t speak Chinese and has only been studying Japanese for two years, and has had absolutely no experience in either country’s school systems, it can be really difficult judging how something like this issue would unfold in those countries. I have to say, creating Ởnh·Vú has been a far more amazing way to learn about East Asian cultures than I ever would have expected. It’s strengthened my love for conlanging in a way I didn’t see coming.

User avatar
Dormouse559
moderator
moderator
Posts: 2840
Joined: 10 Nov 2012 20:52
Location: California

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Dormouse559 » 09 Aug 2018 22:35

All4Ɇn wrote:
09 Aug 2018 02:57
I have to say, creating Ởnh·Vú has been a far more amazing way to learn about East Asian cultures than I ever would have expected. It’s strengthened my love for conlanging in a way I didn’t see coming.
So gratifying to hear that. The opportunity to learn about natlangs and -cultures is one of the most worthwhile aspects of a posteriori conlanging. [:)]

Keenir2
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 Aug 2018 23:51

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Keenir2 » 10 Aug 2018 00:45

I'm mutating all <th>s [T]s in my Faux Greek&Anatolian into <t>s [t]s...and I was contemplating turning all <pn>s* and <pt>s into <t>s as well.

(or should I turn <pn> and <pt> into <th> [T] instead?)

thank you.



* = I got the <pn>s from Carian, not Greek...names like <Pneith>

Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 959
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 10 Aug 2018 00:56

Keenir2 wrote:
10 Aug 2018 00:45
I'm mutating all <th>s [T]s in my Faux Greek&Anatolian into <t>s [t]s...and I was contemplating turning all <pn>s* and <pt>s into <t>s as well.

(or should I turn <pn> and <pt> into <th> [T] instead?)

thank you.



* = I got the <pn>s from Carian, not Greek...names like <Pneith>
Maybe you could get [θ] from [pt] through a stage like [pt] -> [ft] -> [ʰt] -> [θ], otherwise I would not overload the language with [t]s.
My Blog
Current Projects:
Crimean Gothic — A Gothic language spoken in Crimea (duh)
Pelsodian — A Romance language spoken around Lake Balaton
Jezik Panoski — A Slavic language spoken in the same area
An unnamed Semitic language spoken in the Caucus.

tseren
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 6
Joined: 12 Dec 2016 20:19

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by tseren » 10 Aug 2018 01:43

I'm spirantizing intervocalically, but [θ] needs to go. How? The second is tempting because fewer consonants drop out, but is it as weirdly unnatural as I think it is?

Geminates are shortening with compensatory lengthening of the previous vowel as usual.

t tt → θ t → h t → ∅ t / V_V
s ss → h s → ∅ s / V_V

or

t tt → θ t → s t / V_V
s ss → r ss / V_V

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 11721
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 10 Aug 2018 01:58

tseren wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:43
but [θ] needs to go.
Alas…
tseren wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:43
t tt → θ t → h t → ∅ t / V_V
s ss → h s → ∅ s / V_V
No problems here. θ (> s) > h > Ø is totally reasonable, if you ask me.
tseren wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:43
t tt → θ t → s t / V_V
s ss → r ss / V_V
s (> z) > r doesn't feel weird to me either, especially not intervocalically.

I think that ss would be likely to shorten, especially since s no longer exists intervocalically, and tt shortens. However, I don't think it's too glaringly unnatural to leave it as a geminate, and there's probably some natlang precedent out there that I don't know about.

Keenir2
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 17
Joined: 06 Aug 2018 23:51

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Keenir2 » 10 Aug 2018 02:29

tseren wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:43
I'm spirantizing intervocalically, but [θ] needs to go. How? The second is tempting because fewer consonants drop out, but is it as weirdly unnatural as I think it is?
t tt → θ t → h t → ∅ t / V_V
s ss → h s → ∅ s / V_V

or

t tt → θ t → s t / V_V
s ss → r ss / V_V[/quote]

if I'm reading these right...
tott -> thot ->hot -> ot
vs
tott -> thot -> sot

soss -> hos -> os
vs
soss -> ross

my first thought is that I like the second row's second option (maybe end with ros instead of ross?), but the first option for the first row (good ol ot )....but if its a package deal, then the second set (sot and ross, though I stand by my suggestion of ros)

hope that helps at least a little

Ælfwine wrote:
10 Aug 2018 00:56
Keenir2 wrote:
10 Aug 2018 00:45
* = I got the <pn>s from Carian, not Greek...names like <Pneith>
Maybe you could get [θ] from [pt] through a stage like [pt] -> [ft] -> [ʰt] -> [θ], otherwise I would not overload the language with [t]s.
makes sense; don't want to have too many phrases like "Praise Te Great TeoTanatos Teit!" :)


seriously, thank you.


(from theo-thanatos = god-death)
Last edited by Keenir2 on 10 Aug 2018 02:32, edited 1 time in total.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 11721
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 10 Aug 2018 03:06

Keenir2 wrote:
10 Aug 2018 02:29
if I'm reading these right...
tott -> thot ->hot -> ot
vs
tott -> thot -> sot

soss -> hos -> os
vs
soss -> ross
Aren't the changes just intervocalic, though?

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3093
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by k1234567890y » 11 Aug 2018 07:22

In respect of morphosyntax...I guess I need to try an open pronominal system based on social relationship and something like, as in Japanese, Korean and Southeast Asian languages...
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 11721
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 11 Aug 2018 17:26

k1234567890y wrote:
11 Aug 2018 07:22
In respect of morphosyntax...I guess I need to try an open pronominal system based on social relationship and something like, as in Japanese, Korean and Southeast Asian languages...
If you're only considering this because you feel like you need to, then I'd recommend not doing it. But if you genuinely want to do it, then go for it!

tseren
rupestrian
rupestrian
Posts: 6
Joined: 12 Dec 2016 20:19

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by tseren » 11 Aug 2018 23:29

shimobaatar wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:58
tseren wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:43
but [θ] needs to go.
Alas…
tseren wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:43
t tt → θ t → h t → ∅ t / V_V
s ss → h s → ∅ s / V_V
No problems here. θ (> s) > h > Ø is totally reasonable, if you ask me.
tseren wrote:
10 Aug 2018 01:43
t tt → θ t → s t / V_V
s ss → r ss / V_V
s (> z) > r doesn't feel weird to me either, especially not intervocalically.

I think that ss would be likely to shorten, especially since s no longer exists intervocalically, and tt shortens. However, I don't think it's too glaringly unnatural to leave it as a geminate, and there's probably some natlang precedent out there that I don't know about.
I know that the first set, with t → ∅, is the tried and true. My worry with option 2 is that an intervocalic t → θ → s doesn't seem to have any natlang precedent I can find. That worries me for some reason. It makes me think my logic is off. Still, it's tempting to not throw out so many consonants. Some homophones are fine, but I don't want a language of them.

You're right about the geminate ss. I'm considering reversing the order on that one to leave s from t,
s ss → r ss / V_V
t tt → θ t → s t / V_V

shimobaatar
korean
korean
Posts: 11721
Joined: 12 Jul 2013 23:09
Location: PA → IN

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by shimobaatar » 12 Aug 2018 01:33

tseren wrote:
11 Aug 2018 23:29
I know that the first set, with t → ∅, is the tried and true. My worry with option 2 is that an intervocalic t → θ → s doesn't seem to have any natlang precedent I can find. That worries me for some reason. It makes me think my logic is off. Still, it's tempting to not throw out so many consonants. Some homophones are fine, but I don't want a language of them.
Well, t → θ is attested intervocalically, right? And θ → s isn't unusual in any position, I'd say. I don't think you have anything to worry about on that front.

yangfiretiger121
sinic
sinic
Posts: 274
Joined: 17 Jun 2018 03:04

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by yangfiretiger121 » 12 Aug 2018 01:47

[ls sl → rs sr → ʂ͡ɽ]
[lz zl → rz zr → ʐ͡ɽ]
Alien conlangs (Font may be needed for Vai symbols)

User avatar
k1234567890y
runic
runic
Posts: 3093
Joined: 04 Jan 2014 04:47
Contact:

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by k1234567890y » 01 Sep 2018 07:14

I think to introduce preposition stranding to Town Speech-Plattdytch, should I?
yangfiretiger121 wrote:
12 Aug 2018 01:47
[ls sl → rs sr → ʂ͡ɽ]
[lz zl → rz zr → ʐ͡ɽ]
maybe yes?
I prefer to not be referred to with masculine pronouns and nouns such as “he/him/his”.

Ælfwine
roman
roman
Posts: 959
Joined: 21 Sep 2015 01:28
Location: New Jersey

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Ælfwine » 01 Sep 2018 07:46

yangfiretiger121 wrote:
12 Aug 2018 01:47
[ls sl → rs sr → ʂ͡ɽ]
[lz zl → rz zr → ʐ͡ɽ]
I feel like [ɽʂ] and [ɽʐ] iss more likely. Faroese retroflexes its consonants similarly, where [ɹ] becomes [ɻ] and retroflexes a following consonant as well.
My Blog
Current Projects:
Crimean Gothic — A Gothic language spoken in Crimea (duh)
Pelsodian — A Romance language spoken around Lake Balaton
Jezik Panoski — A Slavic language spoken in the same area
An unnamed Semitic language spoken in the Caucus.

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 314
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: Yay or Nay?

Post by Zekoslav » 01 Sep 2018 11:14

Yesterday, while researching Indo-European, I decided to rethink the way that Pinault's law and laryngeal vocalization will interact in Tewanian.

At first, I thought I simply wouldn't include Pinault's law in my conlang since it shows multiple exceptions in Greek and Latin. Later, I found out that these apparent exceptions could be explained through analogical leveling - apparently, in verbs, the reflex of vocalized laryngeals (*e, *a*, *o in Greek, *a in Latin) was reintroduced before the suffix *-ye- through analogy with forms derived by other consonantal suffixed such as *-tro-.

I had decided that in Tewanian the result of laryngeal vocalization would be /i(ː)/ before PIE. *y and /a(ː)/ otherwise, which would result in these verbs joining the "i-conjugation":


PIE. *stenh2yeti "it thunders", *stenh2dhlom "thunder" > PTw. *steni(ˑ)yeti, *stenadlun


However, with the new understanding of Pinault's law, it is possible (maybe even probable) that the analogical leveling takes place after the vocalized laryngeal had already become /a(ː)/:


PIE. *stenh2yeti, *stenh2dhlom > post-PIE. *stenyeti, *stenadhlom > PTw. *stenayeti, *stenadlun


This would result in these verbs joining the "a-conjugation", which is what they did in Latin, and Proto-Tewanian would loose a bit of it's uniqueness - it is still possible to have these verbs join the "i-conjugation", but that would require 1. a very early reintoduction of the vocalized laryngeal before the suffix *-ye- and 2. multiple rounds of analogical leveling between different verb stems, namely the present and the participle, and I don't like this analogical ping-pong [D;]:


*stenh2yeti, *stenh2to- > *stenyeti, *stenəto- > *stenəyeti, *stenəto- (participle influences present) > *steniyeti, *stenəto- > *steniyeti, *stenito- (present influences participle)


What should I do?
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

Post Reply