Advice for Omyatloko

A forum for all topics related to constructed languages
Post Reply
User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 13 Oct 2018 03:58

I would like some advice, please. I have 351 glyphs but I know some them will rarely be used, and I realize I lack glyphs for words that are more common. So, I've been mapping my glyphs to the Kyōiku kanji in an effort to get basic, common words but I think I may be missing the mark.

Should I look for a list of common Hanzi/Kanji/Kanja or use some other guidepost? I had thought of using common Mayan glyphs or Egyptian hieroglyphs, but the resources are usually not very good. My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.

Any and all help is appreciated.

User avatar
sangi39
moderator
moderator
Posts: 3134
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 00:53
Location: North Yorkshire, UK

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by sangi39 » 13 Oct 2018 04:53

masako wrote:
13 Oct 2018 03:58
I would like some advice, please. I have 351 glyphs but I know some them will rarely be used, and I realize I lack glyphs for words that are more common. So, I've been mapping my glyphs to the Kyōiku kanji in an effort to get basic, common words but I think I may be missing the mark.

Should I look for a list of common Hanzi/Kanji/Kanja or use some other guidepost? I had thought of using common Mayan glyphs or Egyptian hieroglyphs, but the resources are usually not very good. My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.

Any and all help is appreciated.
I'd say somewhere between Linear B (which has around 100 ideographs) and maybe third-grade Kyoiku Kanji (440) might be okay. It depends really on exactly on how exactly those glyphs are used. In Linear B, for example, they're used almost exclusively as ideograms or determinatives, while in Japanese they're used as... everything [:P] I think it might come down to a) whether the writing system is borrowed vs. native and b) whether the system tries to be phonetic or not (which then depends on the phonology of the language).
You can tell the same lie a thousand times,
But it never gets any more true,
So close your eyes once more and once more believe
That they all still believe in you.
Just one time.

User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 13 Oct 2018 19:58

sangi39 wrote:
13 Oct 2018 04:53
a) whether the writing system is borrowed vs. native
It's inspired, but not borrowed.
sangi39 wrote:
13 Oct 2018 04:53
b) whether the system tries to be phonetic or not (which then depends on the phonology of the language).
Well, it's a mixed system; "The glyphs are logosyllabic, combining about 500 logograms (which represent whole words) and 220 syllabograms (which represent syllables). "

User avatar
cedh
metal
metal
Posts: 370
Joined: 07 Sep 2011 21:25
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by cedh » 14 Oct 2018 15:13

What about using some glyphs both as a logogram and as a phonetic glyph for the initial syllable of the most basic word for the concept represented by the logogram?

User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 15 Oct 2018 17:17

cedh wrote:
14 Oct 2018 15:13
What about using some glyphs both as a logogram and as a phonetic glyph for the initial syllable of the most basic word for the concept represented by the logogram?
Your idea is a good one, however, I already have an entire (featural) syllabary. That means I'm not looking for syllables, but logograms, and I'd like to avoid ambiguity as much as possible between the two types of glyphs.

User avatar
lsd
roman
roman
Posts: 896
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » 15 Oct 2018 18:14

masako wrote:
13 Oct 2018 03:58
My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.
in natlanguages, alphabets have tens signs, syllabaries hundred, logographies thousands...
How do you hack those limits to get your number of signs...
masako wrote:I already have an entire (featural) syllabary.
Featural in what sense...

User avatar
spanick
greek
greek
Posts: 802
Joined: 11 May 2017 00:47
Location: California

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by spanick » 16 Oct 2018 00:40

lsd wrote:
15 Oct 2018 18:14
masako wrote:
13 Oct 2018 03:58
My goal is to have about 500 glyphs for fairly common words.
in natlanguages, alphabets have tens signs, syllabaries hundred, logographies thousands...
How do you hack those limits to get your number of signs...
This isn't entirely true. Sumerian Cuneiform only had 1,00-1,500 total graphemes. Akkadian used fewer, Assyrian fewer still. Hittite Cuneiform used only some 600 graphemes.

User avatar
lsd
roman
roman
Posts: 896
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » 17 Oct 2018 21:56

this does not contradict the average:
Around the twenties: alphabet
around the hundred: syllabary
around a thousand: logography...

User avatar
spanick
greek
greek
Posts: 802
Joined: 11 May 2017 00:47
Location: California

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by spanick » 17 Oct 2018 23:23

lsd wrote:
17 Oct 2018 21:56
this does not contradict the average:
Around the twenties: alphabet
around the hundred: syllabary
around a thousand: logography...
It does contradict what you originally said which was that logographic require thousands of symbols. I don’t know about you, but I’d consider 600 pretty far from 1000 and much closer to masako’s goal of 500 glyphs.

User avatar
lsd
roman
roman
Posts: 896
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » 18 Oct 2018 06:06

500 it's a bit limited for a purely logographic system ...
except to hack the system a bit ...

User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 18 Oct 2018 14:56

lsd wrote:
18 Oct 2018 06:06
500 it's a bit limited for a purely logographic system
This lets us know that you're not paying attention. Omyatloko is not a purely logographic system.

User avatar
lsd
roman
roman
Posts: 896
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » 18 Oct 2018 21:30

I had seen it, but I can not see the articulation between the 500 purely logographic words and the rest of the lexicon ...
Is there any superposition, duplicates, or something ... (ditto for the featural stuff)

User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 19 Oct 2018 16:28

lsd wrote:
18 Oct 2018 21:30
I had seen it, but I can not see the articulation between the 500 purely logographic words and the rest of the lexicon ...
Is there any superposition, duplicates, or something ... (ditto for the featural stuff)
I'm not sure what exactly you're talking about.

There are glyphs for whole words/ideas/concepts, and there is a featural syllabary (i.e. vowel markers are designed to convey articulation of vowels, as well as palatalization or labialization, consonantal pre-nasalization and diphthongs are also indicated).

Check this:
I finished developing glyphs for family terminology and a novel way to render various relatives.

Using these glyphs:
Image
These can be found on this page

You generate these terms:
Image

Note the use of -ha (augmentative) and -hi (diminutive) to denote relative age. The "handwritten" versions of each example are syllables, not logographic.

User avatar
lsd
roman
roman
Posts: 896
Joined: 11 Mar 2011 21:11
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by lsd » 19 Oct 2018 17:07

What i've understood: logograms are made by deformations of syllabic signs, and each compound of logograms makes meaning of a new word whose sound is a compound by reduction of the names of the compounded logograms...
In fact pronunciation is the basis of the writing, even logographic, by progressive deformations...
The featural thing come from hangul imports...
The whole stuf could be seen like a kind of amazing hangul mash-up...
Last edited by lsd on 19 Oct 2018 20:17, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 19 Oct 2018 17:45

I'm not able to parse your thought-stream. Please take my appreciation for your attempt at participation and have a nice day.

User avatar
cedh
metal
metal
Posts: 370
Joined: 07 Sep 2011 21:25
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by cedh » 20 Oct 2018 10:01

How is the handwritten style related to the block style? I can see some similarities, but the glyphs don't seem to correspond...

User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 20 Oct 2018 13:29

cedh wrote:
20 Oct 2018 10:01
How is the handwritten style related to the block style? I can see some similarities, but the glyphs don't seem to correspond...
In the examples above, the handwritten are the syllables and the grey glyphs are logograms.

https://i.imgur.com/hiVkIRK.png Hopefully this clears up some confusion.

User avatar
cedh
metal
metal
Posts: 370
Joined: 07 Sep 2011 21:25
Location: Tübingen, Germany
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by cedh » 20 Oct 2018 17:31

masako wrote:
20 Oct 2018 13:29
https://i.imgur.com/hiVkIRK.png Hopefully this clears up some confusion.
Ah, I see. Thank you!

User avatar
masako
shadowlight
shadowlight
Posts: 1955
Joined: 12 Aug 2010 15:42
Location: 가매
Contact:

Re: Advice for Omyatloko

Post by masako » 22 Oct 2018 18:06

Good. I'm glad it helped.

Post Reply