Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

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CarsonDaConlanger
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Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 19 Feb 2019 20:53

I've been working on (yet) another project! This time I'm making an IE lang situated in Southern Anatolia (but not Anatolian). I haven't got a name for it but here's the basics of the protolang: (I'll call it PSA from now on)

Inventory:

/*m *n/ m n
/*p *b *t *d *k *g/ p b t d k g
/*s *z *ʃ1 *h2/ s z ş h
/*l *r *j *w/ l r y w

/*i *i: *u *u:/i ī u ū
/*e *e: *a3 *a:3/ e ē a ā

/*aj *āj *aw *āw *ej *ēj *ew *ēw *ij *iw *uj *uw4/ ay āy aw āw ey ēy ew ēw iy iw uy uw

Notes:

1: /ʃ/ and /j/ are only distinctive from the cluster [sj]>[ʃ:]>[ʃ] otherwise /ʃ/ appears as an allophone of /j/ word initially or after /l/ and /r/.
2: /h/ and /z/ are only distinctive word initially before the vowel /a(:)/.
3: /a(:)/ was probably realized as a rounded low back vowel [ɒ(:)]. I will transcribe it broadly as a(:) because it's easier.
4: Early PSA probably had distinctive length on the high diphthongs but merged them with the short ones in later stages.


Out of Date. Click here for most recent information.
Last edited by CarsonDaConlanger on 03 Mar 2019 19:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Omzinesý
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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by Omzinesý » 21 Feb 2019 09:15

How does its conhistory go? I mean is the lang positioned in modern times or some period of hisory?

You said /z/ and /h/ have a complementary distribution in most environments. Which appears where?


The sub codes in the code area do not work.
Discribing laryngeals is difficult because nobody knows how (and if) they really appeared. I prefer just starting the sound changes from a time wgen they are supposed to be lost already.

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CarsonDaConlanger
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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 25 Feb 2019 20:49

Omzinesý wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:15
How does its conhistory go? I mean is the lang positioned in modern times or some period of hisory?
Currently this is around the time of Ancient Greek, it will evolve more later, probably leading to a few daughter languages.
Omzinesý wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:15
You said /z/ and /h/ have a complementary distribution in most environments. Which appears where?
/z/ becomes /h/ word initally before PIE *a and *ā, but not before *o and *ō.
Then *a *ā merged with *o *ō, creating the phonemic distinction between /z/ and /h/ before /a/
Omzinesý wrote:
21 Feb 2019 09:15
The sub codes in the code area do not work.
Discribing laryngeals is difficult because nobody knows how (and if) they really appeared. I prefer just starting the sound changes from a time wgen they are supposed to be lost already.
I basically just tried to mirror what I saw them do in other languages, so I had *h1 turn to /e/ and not color, *h2 turn to /a/ and color to /a/, then h3 turns to /o/>/a/ and color the same. When after a vowel they are lost and lengthen it.

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CarsonDaConlanger
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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 25 Feb 2019 21:10

Edit: This information is out of date, click here for the most recent post.
Here are some of the nominal declensions I have figured out so far:

1st declension (-a), from *-eh2
Eswa f "mare" (from *h1éḱweh2)

Code: Select all

    Sg   PL
NOM eswa eswēs
ACC eswām eswās
DAT eswi eswāmas
GEN eswēs eswām
LOC esway eswāsu
2st declension (-as (MASC) -am (NEUT)), (from *-os)
Lebas M "mouth" (from *leb-)

Code: Select all

    Sg   PL
NOM lebas lebās
ACC lebam lebās
DAT lebi lebamas
GEN lebaşa lebām
LOC lebi lebīsu
Azatám N "silver" (from *h₂r̥ǵn̥tóm)

Code: Select all

    Sg   PL
NOM azatám azatá
ACC azatám azatá
DAT azatáy azatámas
GEN azatáşa azatâm
LOC azatí azatîsu

3rd Declension Vowel stem (-us/is (MASC/FEM) -i/u (NEUT)) (from *-is/i/us/u)
Atris F "head" (from *h₂óḱris)

Code: Select all

    Sg   PL
NOM atris atries
ACC atrim atrīs
DAT atrí atrímas
GEN atrîs atríam
LOC atrí atrísu
4th Declension (-) (from *-is/i/us/u)
Patêr M "father" (from *ph₂tḗr)

Code: Select all

    Sg   PL
NOM patêr patéres
ACC patéra patéras
DAT patrí patamás
GEN patrés patrâm
LOC paterí patasú
There are a few more that I still need to work out, but there's the main four.
Edit: Fixed a mistake in the locative singular of the -i stems.
Edit: 3rd declension consonant stems are now just 4th declension nouns.
[/s]
Last edited by CarsonDaConlanger on 07 Mar 2019 02:32, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by Zekoslav » 26 Feb 2019 13:58

Looks like a good start, not many sound changes but it already looks like a different language. It looks vaguely Greek-like, but satem, esp. the word "father".

Just one question: in the i-declension, is the loc. sg. identical to loc. pl. on purpose or is it a mistake?

(This reminds me to get back to posting info about my own IE. language, but I decided to mark it's accent by a boatload of combining diacritics and I just don't like how it looks on this board. I guess I could just post images of my declension tables? [D;])
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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 26 Feb 2019 19:42

Zekoslav wrote:
26 Feb 2019 13:58
Looks like a good start, not many sound changes but it already looks like a different language. It looks vaguely Greek-like, but satem, esp. the word "father".
/quote]

Thanks it's gonna undergo some more changes later, as it splits.
Zekoslav wrote:
26 Feb 2019 13:58
Just one question: in the i-declension, is the loc. sg. identical to loc. pl. on purpose or is it a mistake?
It was a mistake. Loc singular is usually identical to dat singular.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 26 Feb 2019 21:56

I like it. This really reminds me of Lihmelinyan. Actually the phoneme inventory is very close; only difference is I have /f/ and /x/ instead of /h/. [:D]

Your 2nd declension genitive singular ending is the same as mine: -aša /'a.ʃa/ (from -osyo)

I like any IE-lang that preserves archaic features (like the locative plural ending in -su). I'll be glad to see how this turns out.

Also, question: is the circumflex used for an accented long vowel?

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by Zekoslav » 27 Feb 2019 10:47

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
26 Feb 2019 21:56
I like any IE-lang that preserves archaic features (like the locative plural ending in -su). I'll be glad to see how this turns out.
Heh, mine is innovative on purpose, while not having many sound changes at all! During my time as a student of linguistics (and French, which, when I think of it, is probably the culprit for this change of mind) I've gone from preferring conservative to preferring innovative languages. One sketchy daughter language barely preserves any PIE. morphology. [:D]

@ Carson: In words which don't have an accent mark, I assume stress is on the first syllable?
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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 27 Feb 2019 21:33

KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
26 Feb 2019 21:56
I like it. This really reminds me of Lihmelinyan. Actually the phoneme inventory is very close; only difference is I have /f/ and /x/ instead of /h/. [:D]

Your 2nd declension genitive singular ending is the same as mine: -aša /'a.ʃa/ (from -osyo)

I like any IE-lang that preserves archaic features (like the locative plural ending in -su). I'll be glad to see how this turns out.
Thanks! [:D]
KaiTheHomoSapien wrote:
26 Feb 2019 21:56
Also, question: is the circumflex used for an accented long vowel?
Yeah, I hate ā́ especially on this cite so I use â instead.
Zekoslav wrote:
27 Feb 2019 10:47
@ Carson: In words which don't have an accent mark, I assume stress is on the first syllable?
Yep

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 27 Feb 2019 23:10

Here is the last noun declension:
5th Declension (-a) (from -r/n)
Wada n "Water" (from *wódr̥)

Code: Select all

    Sg   PL
NOM wada wadār
ACC wada wadār
DAT udéni udní
GEN udês udnés
LOC udéni udénsu
Notes on declension merges:
The -os athematic declension merged to the thematic declension, taking thematic endings.
The -ih₂ declension merged to the 3rd declension, taking -i endings.
The -n -nt -s -ts -l declensions all merged to 4th declension, null endings.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 03 Mar 2019 19:15

UPDATE 1: Name, sound changes, and accent
Name
This lang now has a name: Ancient Maric based off off the word for ocean: "mari"

Sound Changes
Spoiler:
PSA underwent the satam shift meaning palatals remained distinctive while the labiovelars and plain labials merged.

The aspirated series merged with the plain voiced: *bh *dhh *gh > *b *d *ǵ *g

The palatals assibilated (Probably passing through an affricate phase): *ḱ *ǵ > *s *z

Larangyals are reflexed as follows:

Code: Select all

Onset---------------|Coda-----------------|Syllabic--------------
*h[sub]1[/sub]e > e |e*h[sub]1[/sub] > e: |*h[sub]1[/sub] > e
*h[sub]2[/sub]e > a |e*h[sub]2[/sub] > a: |*h[sub]2[/sub] > a
*h[sub]3[/sub]e > o |e*h[sub]3[/sub] > o: |*h[sub]2[/sub] > o
*n̥ *n̥̄ *m̥ *m̥̄ *l̥ *l̥̄ *r̥ *r̥̄ > a a:

*ei *oi *eu *ou > ī ī ū ū

*z > *h /#_*a(:), *o(:)

*o *ō > *a *ā

*y > *ş /#, *r, *l_

*sy *zy> *ş

*pt *kt > *t/except post tonically

*tt > *t

*n *m > Ø / in a coda cluster*

*V̄ > *V / when word finally or before another vowel

*sd *sb *sg > *zd *zb *zg/V,R_V,R
> *d *b *g
I am ditching the sound change *pt *kt > wt jk
Now *pt *kt > t / unless following a stressed syllable (Following Maric, not PIE stress.)

*k *g > ts dz /_E[-stress] (Following PIE stress this time)

V:R > VR [+falling pitch if in one of the first two syllables]
The new inventory is as follows:

/m n/ m n
/p b t d ts dz k g/ p b t d ts dz k g
/s z ʃ h/ s z ş h
/l r j w/ l r y w

/i i: u u:/ i ī u ū
/e e: (o)* (o:)*/ e ē o* ō*
/a a:/a ā

*Only found in loan words, mainly from Ancient Greek.

Accent
Ancient Maric now has a pitch accent system with three tones: high, rising, and falling. High (1st accent) is marked <a> or <ā> depending on whether the vowel is long or short. Rising (2nd accent) is marked as <á> or <â>. Falling (3rd accent) is marked as <à> or <ă>. Accent is either on the 1st or 2nd syllable, and all other syllables receive a low tone.

The first syllable is always given a high pitch except for the following set of conditions:

1st vowel is short:

The second syllable has a long* vowel and is open. Then the 2nd syllable receives a falling pitch.

The second syllable has a long vowel and is closed. Then the 1st syllable receives a rising pitch and the 2nd vowel is shortened.

1st vowel is long:

If the second vowel is long and in an open syllable. Then the 1st vowel is given a falling pitch.

If the second vowel is long and in a closed syllable. Then the 1st vowel is given a rising pitch and the long vowel is shortened.

The second syllable had an overlong** vowel. Then the 2nd syllable receives a falling pitch, and the first vowel is shortened if long.

*a long vowel is any geminate vowel as well as a diphthong or a sequence of VR.
**an overlong vowel is any sequence of V:R. These are underlying but is realized as VR.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by Zekoslav » 03 Mar 2019 21:18

Now that's an interesting pitch accent system! I don't think I've ever heard of a pitch accent system that was completely predictable, with the exception of Iroquoian languages, which are rather different from what you describe (something like that was also proposed for Classical Latin, but it's likely based on a too literal understanding of Greek-based terminology).

I'm not sure I understand it well: it's a nicely complex interaction of vowel/syllable quantity and vowel quality. The most intriguing is shortened long vowels inducing rising pitch. What's your reasoning on how it happened? [:D] (I have some rather more mundane accent shifts in my language)
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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 03 Mar 2019 22:52

Zekoslav wrote:
03 Mar 2019 21:18
Now that's an interesting pitch accent system! I don't think I've ever heard of a pitch accent system that was completely predictable, with the exception of Iroquoian languages, which are rather different from what you describe (something like that was also proposed for Classical Latin, but it's likely based on a too literal understanding of Greek-based terminology).
I'm glad you like it! [:D] I was inspired to create it by looking at your Tewanian post actually.
It's only really predictable from a historical standpoint: you can't always tell from the phonemic properties of the word what accent it will have, other than that if the second syllable contains a diphthong or a long vowel and the first doesn't it will be accented. For example, let's take some fake roots from PIE and see how it goes:

*terōsk-o-s > téraskas [tě.ràs.kàs]
*terosk-o-s > teraskas [té.ràs.kàs]

*esenti > esĕnti [è.sên.tì]
*esēnti > esênti [è.sěn.tì]
Zekoslav wrote:
03 Mar 2019 21:18
I'm not sure I understand it well: it's a nicely complex interaction of vowel/syllable quantity and vowel quality. The most intriguing is shortened long vowels inducing rising pitch. What's your reasoning on how it happened? [:D] (I have some rather more mundane accent shifts in my language)
I'm not super knowledgeable about how all this works but my thought was that the second syllable shortening transferred some of its tone to the end of the preceding syllable, raising it. Likewise, the first syllable shortening caused tone to move to the beginning of the the 2nd syllable.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 06 Mar 2019 13:42

Time for some verbal paradigms. Ancient Maric innovated and symplified the verbal system quite a bit, to basically 2 systems of "regular" verbs: thematic and athematic. They conjugate to 6 "tenses" (TAM combinations): present imperfective, past imperfective, perfect, preterite, hypothetical, and imperative. Infinitives have the suffix -bu.

Here are some examples:
(I'll give all personal endings for nonpast, then just 1S for all other tenses except for imperative which has 2nd person)

Thematic: berbu "carry"

Present:
1S bera
2S beresi
3M beretas
3F bereti
3N beretam
1P beramas
2P berete
3P beránta

Perfect:
bebera

Past:
berám

Preterite:
beberam

Hypothetical:
bérşa

Imperative:
bere

Athematic: likbu "leave"

Present:
1S līkmi
2S līksi
3M līkas
3F līki
3N līkàm
1P likmas
2P likte
3P likati

Perfect:
lelǐkmi

Past:
līkta

Preterite:
lelîka

Hypothetical:
lītsyem

Imperative:
liktu

Reduplication
In verbs, initial consonant reduplication with <e> after it leads to perfective aspect.
līkmi > lelĭkmi

If there is no initial consonant, and the word doesn't begin with <e>, then <y> is added to the beginning of the word, and the vowel is lengthened if it's short. If the word begins with <e> then <ey> is added to the beginning of the word.

That's the basic inflection of the verbs. I'll get on to paraphrasis in greater depth later.
Last edited by CarsonDaConlanger on 06 Mar 2019 18:39, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by Zekoslav » 06 Mar 2019 14:15

Now that's a cool way to have verbs conjugate for gender (the *-t endings reinterpreted as pronouns, I did it as well in one of my descendant languages but not to introduce gender, rather to get rid of plural conjugation and introduce some novel vowel alternations)!

As for the rise of pitch accent, well, you did it more originally than I did! Mine just gets more and more syllable weight-based as time goes on and eventually becomes a predictable stress accent. I'll do a post about it later.
Languages:
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A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 06 Mar 2019 16:31

Zekoslav wrote:
06 Mar 2019 14:15
Now that's a cool way to have verbs conjugate for gender (the *-t endings reinterpreted as pronouns, I did it as well in one of my descendant languages but not to introduce gender, rather to get rid of plural conjugation and introduce some novel vowel alternations)!

As for the rise of pitch accent, well, you did it more originally than I did! Mine just gets more and more syllable weight-based as time goes on and eventually becomes a predictable stress accent. I'll do a post about it later.
Thanks! I heard some other languages did and it felt very "Maric" to me that they would cliticize the pronouns.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 06 Mar 2019 16:35

Paraphrasis:

Future tense

The future tense is formed using the copula "bu" conjugated to person and tense, and leaving the verb in the infinitive. "Bu" is fossilized and not used for any other purpose.

Búm berbu. "I will give"
Būs berbu. "You will give"
Būtas berbu "He will give"
Būti berbu. "She will give"
Butăm berbu. "It will give"
Būme berbu. "We will give"
Būte berbu. "You(pl) will give"
Buĕd berbu. "They will give"

Passive voice

Passive voice is formed using the copula "es"(to be) conjugated to person and tense and leaving the verb in the infinitive. Unlike "bu", "es" is still used as the primary copula. "Es" Conjugates to all 5 "tenses" as well as person, so I'll just show you present in all persons and the other 4 in 1sg.

Present:
Esmi berbu. "I am given"
Esi berbu. "You are given"
Estas berbu. "He is given"
Esti berbu. "She is given"
Estam berbu. "It is given"
Ésas berbu. "We are given"
Este berbu. "You(pl) are given"
Esĕti berbu. "They are given"

Perfect:
Eyesmi berbu. "I have been given"

Past:
Esa berbu. "I was given"

Preterite:
Eyesa berbu. "I had been given"

Future:
Búm-es berbu. "I will be given"

Hypothetical:
Éşes berbu. "I might be given"

Progressive:

Progressive is formed using "stābu" conjugated to person and tense, and blocks conjugation on the parent verb. Like in Latin, "stābu" also means to stand. Since it declines the same as any athematic verb, I'll just give one example:

Stāmi berbu. "I am giving"

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 07 Mar 2019 02:30

How about some revised noun declensions!

1st declension
The 1st (a-stem) and 2nd declension (as-stem and am-stem) nouns have merged into one declension, which can end in -a -as or -am. There are some irregular a-stem nouns that end in -a but have radically different endings.

-a(s)
kīna F "revenge, debt, penance" < *kʷoynéh "vengeance"

NOM.SG: kīna
NOM.PL: kīnaes
ACC.SG: kinám
ACC.PL: kînas
DAT.SG: kīni
DAT.PL: kinămas
GEN.SG: kînaşa
GEN.PL: kinám
LOC.SG: kináy
LOC.PL: kīnasu

am-stem
uyám N "egg" < *h₂ōwyóm "egg"

NOM/ACC.SG: uyám
NOM/ACC.PL: ūya
All other cases are identical.

1st declension nouns don't undergo stem changes except for stress based vowel reduction as demonstrated, except for irregular a-stems.

Irregular a-stems
Irregular a-stems come from the n/r-stems of PIE.

wada N "water" < *wódr̥

NOM/ACC.SG: wada
NOM/ACC.PL: wadár
DAT.SG udeni
DAT.PL udni
GEN.SG údes
GEN.PL udnes
LOC.SG udèn
LOC.PL udeni

2nd declension
2nd declension nouns can end in -u -i -us -is.

persus F "chest, center" <*pérḱus

NOM.SG: persus
NOM.PL: persewes
ACC.SG: persùm
ACC.PL pérsus
DAT.SG pasewi
DAT.PL pasumas
GEN.SG pasus
GEN.PL pasewam
LOC.SG pasewi
LOC.PL pasusu

Many 2nd declension nouns have an oblique stem that must be memorized. Not all do however, especially loanwords of which there are plenty [:D].

3rd declension
3rd declension nouns end in any consonant, as well as -a or, in loan words, -o.

zenetor M "parent"

NOM.SG: zenetar
NOM.PL: zenetares
ACC.SG: zenetara
ACC.PL zenetaras
DAT.SG hātri
DAT.PL hātamas
GEN.SG hātres
GEN.PL hatrám
LOC.SG hāteri
LOC.PL hātasu

In general, all nouns are listed with their genitive singular.

Adjectives follow the same endings as verbs do in the present tense -as -i -am.

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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by CarsonDaConlanger » 08 Mar 2019 01:21

Now that I've got the basics covered, let's see what it looks like! Here is the first translation into Ancient Maric:

The King and the God

Ancient Maric
Áres estas. Nēstas patér. Weledas sŭnum. Pasedas saşa abrùm "eşes búm kapibu sŭnum?" Áres abrùm werşedas "pase dĭwam Werunos." Áres gētas ad Werunos da presbu si. "Āse me patér Werunos!" Dīwas Werunos apo dyewi gētas. "Welesi kam?" "Wela sŭnum." "Butàm es." lūkas dīwas Werunos werşedas. Ares árezni beredi sŭnum.

English
There was a king. He was childless (LIT: he wasn't a father). He wanted a son/heir. He asked his priest "May I have a son?" The king's priest said "ask the god Werunos." The king went to Werunos to ask him. "Hear me father Werunos!" The god Werunos went down from heaven. "What do you want?" "I want a son." "It shall be." the shining god Werunos said. The king's wife/queen gave bore a son.

Gloss:
Spoiler:
ár-es es-tas|ne-es-tas pat-ér|wel-edas sūn-um|pase-das saşa abr-ùm|eşes=bum=kapi-bu sūn-um|ár-es abr-ùm weri-edas|pas-e dīw-am Werunos|ár-es gē-tas ad=Werunos da=pres-bu si|ās-e me pat-ér Werunos|dīw-as Werunos apo dyewi gē-tas|wel-esi k-am|wel-a sūn-um|but-am=es|lūk-as dīw-as Werunos weri-edas|a-res árezni ber-edi sūn-um|

king-NOM.SG be-3SM.PST|NEG-be-3SM.PST Father-NOM.SG|want-3SM.PST son-ACC.SG|ask-3SM.PST 3SM.GEN priest-ACC.SG|HYP=FUT=have-Ø son-ACC.SG|king-NOM.SG priest-ACC.SG say-3SM.PST|ask-IMP god-ACC.SG Werunos|king-NOM.SG go-3SM.PST to=Werunos to=ask-INF 3SM.ACC|hear-IMP 1S.ACC father-NOM.SG Werunos|god-NOM.SG Werunos away.from heaven go-3SM.PST|want-2S.PRE what-N.ACC.SG|want-1S.PRE son-ACC.SG|FUT-3SN=be|bright-NOM.SG.M god-NOM.SG Werunos say-3SM.SG|king-GEN.SG queen-NOM.SG carry-3SF son-ACC.SG|
IPA
Spoiler:
/ǎ.res és.tas|né:s.tas pa.těr|wé.le.das sû:.num|pá.se.das sá.ʃa ab.rûm|e.ʃez.bǔm ká.pi.bu sû:.num|ǎ.res ab.rûm wér.ʃe.das|pá.se dî:.wam wé.ru.nos|ǎ.res gé:.tas ád.we.ru.nos dá.prez.bu.si|á:.se.me pa.těr wé.ru.nos|wé.le.si.kam|wé.le sû:.num|bu.tâm és|lú:.kas dí:.was wé.ru.nos wé.rʃe.das|á.res ǎ.rez.ni bé.re.di sú:.num/

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KaiTheHomoSapien
greek
greek
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Joined: 15 Feb 2016 06:10
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Re: Unnamed IE-Lang Beginnings

Post by KaiTheHomoSapien » 08 Mar 2019 06:58

Very nice [:D] It sounds very archaic IE, which is awesome. I don't see enough of that in conlangs. I hope you continue this!

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