Other Creativity

What can I say? It doesn't fit above, put it here. Also the location of board rules/info.
User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 336
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Zekoslav » 07 Dec 2019 11:15

That's a very thought out musical instrument and tuning system! I actually started to experiment with just intonation after finding a fully customizable 24-key piano app online, but I never thought of using these "bugs" of 5-limit JI as features!

So the pentatonic scale with one gravetone was D 9/8 E 6/5 G 9/8 A 6/5 C 800/729 D, the one with two gravetones and fourths and fifths made pure again was D 800/729 E 243/200 G 9/8 A 243/200 C 800/729 D. Now I the statement that B was added as a gravetone below A confused me, since in standard scales B comes above A! The heptatonic scale with B added below A (and F added below G) according to your statement would be D 800/729 E 177147/160000 F 800/729 G 6561/6400 B 800/729 A 243/200 C 800/729 D. I find no 535581/500000 semitones in this scale, but I do find a 177147/160000 neutral second and a 6561/6400 quartertone! Placing B a grave tone below C as in standard scales results in no quartertones, rather in a one more 177147/16000 neutral second. The resulting scale has a similar arrangement of small and large steps as the natural minor scale (large, small, large, large, small, large, large), but the two step sizes are much more similar in size, ~160 vs. ~175 cents (except the one between the pure fourth and fifth which is ~200 cents). In any case this is not what you describe. Where did I get this wrong?

EDIT: I wasn't concentrated at all when I was writing this, and the comparison of the heptatonic scale as I understood it to the natural minor scale is not very adequate. If we call the 800/729 tone step A and the 177147/160000 tone step B, then this scale has a lower tetrachord of A B A and the upper tetrachord of B A A, rather like the natural minor scale: in natural minor, step A is a major second and step B a minor second. However, in natural minor step A is larger than step B, while in this scale it's smaller. This, and the fact that steps A and B are much closer in size make it very different from natural minor in all regards other than the A B A and B A A patterns.
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1784
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Salmoneus » 07 Dec 2019 18:46

You didn't.

First: yes, I of course should have said B is a grave tone above A.

More importantly: although, in playing around with the numbers again, I did come up with my ratio again... I'm now not sure how. Because you're obviously right, the remainder should indeed be 177147/160000.


The odder, but fortunate, thing, is that it doesn't seem to matter - I didn't actually use my erroneous remainder anywhere.

I've worked out the actual intervals in the instrument as described (I think!), and the grave tones come out between 157 and 166 cents (would b 157-162 but for one outlier, D-E in the second octave - and, awkwardly, the largest and smallest grave tones are actually adjacent...), and the neutral seconds between 175.7 and 178.1. Four of the octaves are less than a cent and a half out, only two are more than three and a half cents out, and they're all less than five cents out. Both double octaves are less than a cent out. [the two 9:8 seconds come out as 203.78 cents in the lower octave, and 203.65 cents in the upper octaves]

[verdict: better than I feared, maybe not quite as good as I'd like]

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 336
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Zekoslav » 07 Dec 2019 19:32

Honestly, I don't think anyone ever named the remainder of 1 perfect fourth minus 2 grave tones (cca 175 cents): it's actually acuter than the grave tone itself (cca 160 cents) but graver than the lesser major second (cca 180 cents), if we got by the grave/acute nomenclature. Both could be classed as neutral seconds according to their size.

The scale as you now correctly describe it has two tetrachords with steps the size of cca 160, 175 and 160 cents. Aurally they're nearly equally spaced and something like that does exist in Middle Eastern and, I think, Georgian music. Actual tuning being slightly off from the mathematically ideal one also gives it a touch of realism, and if you're worried about it being too pungent...

And finding the solution to the problem of the two most unequal grave tones being adjacent sounds like a good challenge for your conculture's music theorists!
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1784
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Salmoneus » 07 Dec 2019 21:25

Zekoslav wrote:
07 Dec 2019 11:15
I actually started to experiment with just intonation after finding a fully customizable 24-key piano app online
Would you mind me asking where?
[/quote]



EDIT: and now me fiddling with the tuning has been delayed by me fiddling with trying to find some soundfonts that don't sound ghastly...

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 336
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Zekoslav » 08 Dec 2019 10:53

Here. It synthesizes sound based on frequencies (in Hz, with as many decimal points as you like) you write in the table below the piano app itself.
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1784
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Salmoneus » 08 Dec 2019 17:41

Thanks.

[meanwhile, I found some relevant soundfonts. (though I would like to find a valiha!). But I couldn't load them in musicscore - I needed to update it. So I did that, but then I couldn't open the updated musicscore. Looking up the error message, I realised I needed to update the visual basic c++ thing that windows uses, so I did that. But I couldn't run that updater - very common problem, you need to make sure you have a particular patch. Fine - except that the patch wouldn't work. That, apparently, is very common, and can require one of three or four other patches...

...anyway, while all that was going on, I gave up, came back a bit later, and everything miraculously worked. So now musicscore sounds much, much better than before.]


EDIT: oh, and the upshot is, yes, I'm OK with this tuning system. But I may try to fiddle with the strings a little to reduce the worst irregularities in the instrument.

User avatar
Pabappa
sinic
sinic
Posts: 299
Joined: 18 Nov 2017 02:41
Contact:

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Pabappa » 14 Dec 2019 06:31

I dont consider myself a good poet, ... Ive been dredging up things I wrote long ago, though, so that I dont forget them. Here are the only poems Ive ever written that weren't for a class assignment of some sort:

http://pabappa.com/etc/poems.html
Sorry guys, this one has the worst sting.

User avatar
gestaltist
mayan
mayan
Posts: 1811
Joined: 11 Feb 2015 11:23

Re: Other Creativity

Post by gestaltist » 15 Dec 2019 12:46

I love your work on the instrument, Sal. I don't know enough about musical theory to reproduce your process but just enough to get what you're talking about and be amazed you went to all these lengths to produce something realistic [:D]

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 336
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Zekoslav » 15 Dec 2019 16:26

gestaltist wrote:
15 Dec 2019 12:46
I love your work on the instrument, Sal. I don't know enough about musical theory to reproduce your process but just enough to get what you're talking about and be amazed you went to all these lengths to produce something realistic [:D]
I'd love to be able to build an instrument. When I found out that I have enough skills in music theory to accurately calculate fret positions for my desired tuning, I got enthusiastic, but then I found out that I have no carpentry skills (and carpentry tools) to actually make it!
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1784
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Salmoneus » 16 Dec 2019 01:06

Zekoslav wrote:
15 Dec 2019 16:26
gestaltist wrote:
15 Dec 2019 12:46
I love your work on the instrument, Sal. I don't know enough about musical theory to reproduce your process but just enough to get what you're talking about and be amazed you went to all these lengths to produce something realistic [:D]
I'd love to be able to build an instrument. When I found out that I have enough skills in music theory to accurately calculate fret positions for my desired tuning, I got enthusiastic, but then I found out that I have no carpentry skills (and carpentry tools) to actually make it!
Yes, it's sad. There are many fascinating things one could do with wind instruments, in particular - but doing them requires a combination of musical knowledge, acoustic and mathematical knowledge, AND the skills and equipment to work finely in wood (or other materials). Which I guess is a big part of why there are so many unexplored or underutilised avenues still.


However: if you're talking about a guitar, surely it's not that difficult? Frets can (cross-culturally!) be made of string, or wax, or just a small nail, which should be doable for a motivated layman without any great skill or equipment. A bigger challenge would be removing existing frets... but, assuming you can't just start with a fretless instrument (and OK, any unusual instrument is probably unfeasibly expensive!), and that you're not willing/able to file down the existing frets, what probably IS possible is to just obviate the existing frets by raising the plane of the strings. You can raise the bridge and/or nut, or just put some additional obstacle ABOVE the bridge and/or nut (though you may end up with a little unintentional sawari if you're not careful). That raises the strings enough for the frets to not matter, and then you can add your own frets - maybe something like a strip of hard putty with a metal string to form the edge?

[actually, if you put your frets in higher than the existing frets, you may not even need to raise the strings? there's probably room?]

To do this properly, if you raised the strings you'd also have to slacken the strings slightly (to compensate for the increased coupling), but for amateur exploratory purposes I wouldn't think the timbre change would matter that much...



----------


gestaltist: thank you!

User avatar
Zekoslav
sinic
sinic
Posts: 336
Joined: 07 Oct 2017 16:54

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Zekoslav » 16 Dec 2019 10:49

There's actually tons of tutorials on how to make your own guitar on the Internet, so it's really mostly the lack of proper tools which is preventing me to do it (tinkering with an existing guitar as you proposed is possible but I'd rather not break it any further than I already have while playing with the tuning pegs as a child...).
Languages:
:hrv: [:D], :bih: :srb: [;)], :eng: [:D], :fra: [:|], :lat: [:(], :deu: [:'(]

A linguistics enthusiast who would like to make a conlang, but can't decide what to call what.

- Tewanian languages
- Guide to Slavic accentuation

User avatar
gach
MVP
MVP
Posts: 725
Joined: 07 Aug 2013 01:26
Location: displaced from Helsinki

Re: Other Creativity

Post by gach » 20 Dec 2019 16:20

Zekoslav wrote:
16 Dec 2019 10:49
There's actually tons of tutorials on how to make your own guitar on the Internet, so it's really mostly the lack of proper tools which is preventing me to do it (tinkering with an existing guitar as you proposed is possible but I'd rather not break it any further than I already have while playing with the tuning pegs as a child...).
The way I'd go about this would be to buy a cheap sacrificial guitar to experiment on. That way you won't be making too big of a loss if you end up destroying it. As far as I'm aware, guitar frets are never glued on the fingerboard, so with appropriate care it shouldn't be too tricky to knock them up and out starting from the edge. Then I'd probably start first with improvised movable frets instead of directly committing to new fixed fret positions. In any case, something like ~1 mm diameter brass wire strikes me as fairly decent fret material and the most straightforward way of fixing that on the guitar neck would be to simply tie it around in a tight loop. Then it's up to you how far you want to refine this. Maybe the first refinement to think about would be to use strips of thin leather or fabric around the wire so you won't hurt your hand on the underside of the neck while playing.

Another reason for preferring movable frets, besides the freedom of experimentation, is that you'll probable want to rely on your ears as well as the maths for getting the intonation right. In school we had a guitar building course and during it our woodwork teacher strongly advised us against making our own fretboards in case we made a mistake in the fret positions and ended up with wonky intonation.
ImageKištaLkal sikSeic

Salmoneus
MVP
MVP
Posts: 1784
Joined: 19 Sep 2011 19:37

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Salmoneus » 20 Dec 2019 21:00

It also depends what sort of guitar - or at least, what sort of strings. Gut- (/nylon-)strung instruments traditionally used gut frets - it's only when metal, or metal-overwound strings became common that gut frets fell out of use (because the string cuts through the frets). If you're playing around with a nylong-strung instrument with relatively low tensions - like a cheap kid's starter guitar - then you may not need brass wire, you may be able just to use nylon (which I assume is cheaper? I've never bought strings...)

String frets also let you use the same guitar for several different temperaments. Perhaps consult viol websites for guides on how best to attach the fret for reliability and flexibility?

Khemehekis
runic
runic
Posts: 2501
Joined: 14 Aug 2010 09:36
Location: California über alles

Re: Other Creativity

Post by Khemehekis » 31 Dec 2019 09:07

I have put my essay on bixochromatism, "On Choice, Punishment, and the Color of Lipstick" (which was already up on my Khemehekis Angelfire site) up on my blog:

https://savegraduation.tumblr.com/post/ ... f-lipstick
♂♥♂♀

Squirrels chase koi . . . chase squirrels

My Kankonian-English dictionary: 62,000 words and counting

31,416: The number of the conlanging beast!

Post Reply