Please Comment on what I have

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Taurenzine
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Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 03 Oct 2016 16:50

So I am a huge language nerd. I'm also a huge language noob. When I first started making my language I had no idea what the IPA is, and now that I know it I still don't bother memorizing it. I've created a new chart. not for all sounds possible but only the sounds that I'm gonna use in my Language.

So at this point I'm in the very early stages of making a conlang, and this is also my very first conlang. Before I even started thinking about symbols or characters I started with the sounds. Here is my Chart:


Image


You have no idea how much work I had to do in order to get that image on this thing... I had to post the image to twitter just so that it would be permanently on the internet so I could then take the image address and post it in here.

Anyways, this is my Chart. If you have any comments on my chart, please say so.

anyways, the hardest part right now is making the symbols. I don't know where to start. whether I want it to be right to left, left to right, top to bottom or vise versa. I tried making something that was top to bottom but it looked ugly. I want it to look good, (like Greek, or Tengwar (from LOTR) or Arabic or something that looks good. please help.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Ahzoh » 03 Oct 2016 17:01

What you called "held" are actually fricatives. And what "ch" and "j" are affricates, they begin as stops and end as fricatives: ch is actually t then sh.
There is a good site that can show you an IPA table full of consonants which you can click on to hear a sound.
As for constructing a writing system, clawgrip has a very good guide here.
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Axiem
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Axiem » 03 Oct 2016 17:10

Taurenzine wrote:You have no idea how much work I had to do in order to get that image on this thing... I had to post the image to twitter just so that it would be permanently on the internet so I could then take the image address and post it in here.
Imgur is your friend.
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by gestaltist » 03 Oct 2016 19:09

Why do you feel that you need a writing system? What's wrong with using the normal alphabet? Even if you want a writing system, you'd be better off actually creating a language first - the morphology, the phonotactics, etc., can play a large role in how the writing system shapes up. E.g., if all syllables of a language consist of a consonant and a vowel, a syllabary might make more sense than an alphabet.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil » 03 Oct 2016 21:17

Yeah I would highly encourage you to use the standard IPA symbols and notation and first work on the structure and feature of your language before having a custom alphabet. Using ipa makes it crystal clear what sounds you mean which makes it easier for other people.
That said I hope to see you post more.
Last edited by Nachtuil on 03 Oct 2016 23:32, edited 2 times in total.

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Frislander
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Frislander » 03 Oct 2016 21:43

Taurenzine wrote: (like Greek, or Tengwar (from LOTR) or Arabic or something that looks good.
Tengwar looks good, but it's 1. not a language and 2. completely impractical.

If you're going for Greek (by which I presume you mean Ancient) or Arabic then you're barking up the wrong tree with that phonology: the consonants look just SAE, and with the vowels I've no clue because there's no IPA.

I'd concur with gestaltist that doing the writing system now is a bad idea.

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Axiem
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Axiem » 03 Oct 2016 22:17

Frislander wrote: If you're going for Greek (by which I presume you mean Ancient) or Arabic then you're barking up the wrong tree with that phonology: the consonants look just SAE, and with the vowels I've no clue because there's no IPA.
On the "no IPA" path is also "hr" "hrr" "hR" "r" "rr" and "R", and the phonological difference between them is inscrutable.

If your intention is to read and talk with other conlangers or linguists, then I would strongly suggest learning at least a chunk of IPA; it is the most unambiguous way we have to communicate sounds/pronunciation in text that we have.

That said, it is definitely a good thing to start with your language phonology. From there, I believe the usual recommendation is to work out at least some of the phonotactics—that is, the rules governing what sounds can occur next to other sounds, and how they build up to form words.
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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 04 Oct 2016 14:03

gestaltist wrote:Why do you feel that you need a writing system? What's wrong with using the normal alphabet? Even if you want a writing system, you'd be better off actually creating a language first - the morphology, the phonotactics, etc., can play a large role in how the writing system shapes up. E.g., if all syllables of a language consist of a consonant and a vowel, a syllabary might make more sense than an alphabet.
I want to create the language by designing the words in my writing system. I mean I could hold it off but it kinda ruins the mood for me. and to me, the English alphabet is kinda boring. I don't like the idea of using it. and although I haven't created a world to go with my language (I started my language like 2 weeks ago), I don't want the history behind this language to be based on this plant. so although I haven't done any conworlds yet, it sounds interesting to me and I might start doing that before I even continue my language, so that I have a good feel for what the language should look like.

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 04 Oct 2016 14:12

Frislander wrote:
Taurenzine wrote: (like Greek, or Tengwar (from LOTR) or Arabic or something that looks good.
Tengwar looks good, but it's 1. not a language and 2. completely impractical.

If you're going for Greek (by which I presume you mean Ancient) or Arabic then you're barking up the wrong tree with that phonology: the consonants look just SAE, and with the vowels I've no clue because there's no IPA.

I'd concur with gestaltist that doing the writing system now is a bad idea.
When I'm referring to Greek, Tengwar and Arabic, the only thing that I'm reffering to is the way that they look. I don't care about the way they work, I wanna make my own way for my language to work. My plan is to make it either abugida or featural.

So when I say I like greek, I mean that Greek looks pretty.

And when I say I like Arabic, I mean that arabic looks pretty.

And when I say I like Tengwar, I mean that Tengwar looks pretty.

and also, out of those 3 languages I've only memorized some of the Tengwar Alphabet. Like I said I'm a noob, I dont have much experience with real languages. The only real languages that I have spent time practicing (Other than English) is Spanish, Japanese and Korean.
so yeah.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 04 Oct 2016 14:14

Axiem wrote:
Frislander wrote: If you're going for Greek (by which I presume you mean Ancient) or Arabic then you're barking up the wrong tree with that phonology: the consonants look just SAE, and with the vowels I've no clue because there's no IPA.
On the "no IPA" path is also "hr" "hrr" "hR" "r" "rr" and "R", and the phonological difference between them is inscrutable.

If your intention is to read and talk with other conlangers or linguists, then I would strongly suggest learning at least a chunk of IPA; it is the most unambiguous way we have to communicate sounds/pronunciation in text that we have.

That said, it is definitely a good thing to start with your language phonology. From there, I believe the usual recommendation is to work out at least some of the phonotactics—that is, the rules governing what sounds can occur next to other sounds, and how they build up to form words.
Thank you, I really Appreciate it [:D] I'll try to memorize the IPA ASAP.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Frislander » 04 Oct 2016 14:19

Taurenzine wrote:
Frislander wrote:
Taurenzine wrote: (like Greek, or Tengwar (from LOTR) or Arabic or something that looks good.
Tengwar looks good, but it's 1. not a language and 2. completely impractical.

If you're going for Greek (by which I presume you mean Ancient) or Arabic then you're barking up the wrong tree with that phonology: the consonants look just SAE, and with the vowels I've no clue because there's no IPA.

I'd concur with gestaltist that doing the writing system now is a bad idea.
When I'm referring to Greek, Tengwar and Arabic, the only thing that I'm reffering to is the way that they look. I don't care about the way they work, I wanna make my own way for my language to work. My plan is to make it either abugida or featural.

So when I say I like greek, I mean that Greek looks pretty.

And when I say I like Arabic, I mean that arabic looks pretty.

And when I say I like Tengwar, I mean that Tengwar looks pretty.

and also, out of those 3 languages I've only memorized some of the Tengwar Alphabet. Like I said I'm a noob, I dont have much experience with real languages. The only real languages that I have spent time practicing (Other than English) is Spanish, Japanese and Korean.
so yeah.
Oh, you mean writing-system wise. I thought you meant in terms of phonaesthetics.

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 04 Oct 2016 14:27

Frislander wrote:
Taurenzine wrote:
Frislander wrote:
Taurenzine wrote: (like Greek, or Tengwar (from LOTR) or Arabic or something that looks good.
Tengwar looks good, but it's 1. not a language and 2. completely impractical.

If you're going for Greek (by which I presume you mean Ancient) or Arabic then you're barking up the wrong tree with that phonology: the consonants look just SAE, and with the vowels I've no clue because there's no IPA.

I'd concur with gestaltist that doing the writing system now is a bad idea.
When I'm referring to Greek, Tengwar and Arabic, the only thing that I'm reffering to is the way that they look. I don't care about the way they work, I wanna make my own way for my language to work. My plan is to make it either abugida or featural.

So when I say I like greek, I mean that Greek looks pretty.

And when I say I like Arabic, I mean that arabic looks pretty.

And when I say I like Tengwar, I mean that Tengwar looks pretty.

and also, out of those 3 languages I've only memorized some of the Tengwar Alphabet. Like I said I'm a noob, I dont have much experience with real languages. The only real languages that I have spent time practicing (Other than English) is Spanish, Japanese and Korean.
so yeah.
Oh, you mean writing-system wise. I thought you meant in terms of phonaesthetics.
Yeah. Sorry for making it sound rude when I replied.

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Taurenzine
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Taurenzine » 04 Oct 2016 14:40

I Updated My chart to be a little bit more accurate and easier to understand. I'll explain some of the hard to understand ones:

zjh: this is the 's' sound in Pleasure, or the 'g' in Genre

hr: this is a breathy flicked r, like in the japanese ラ

r: This is just like the previous, except not breathy.

hrr: this is a breathy trilled r.

rr: this is just like the previous, but not breathy.

hR: this is the English way to pronounce r, but Breathy.

R: This is the previous, but not breathy.

dh: this is the 'th' in 'the' or in 'though'

The rest are just the english equivalents.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Frislander » 04 Oct 2016 14:46

Taurenzine wrote:I Updated My chart to be a little bit more accurate and easier to understand. I'll explain some of the hard to understand ones:

zjh: this is the 's' sound in Pleasure, or the 'g' in Genre

hr: this is a breathy flicked r, like in the japanese ラ

r: This is just like the previous, except not breathy.

hrr: this is a breathy trilled r.

rr: this is just like the previous, but not breathy.

hR: this is the English way to pronounce r, but Breathy.

R: This is the previous, but not breathy.

dh: this is the 'th' in 'the' or in 'though'

The rest are just the english equivalents.

Image
So <zjh> /ʒ/, <hr> /ɾ̥/, <r> /ɾ/, <hrr> /r̥/, <rr> /r/, <hR> /ɻ̊/, <R> /ɻ/ and <dh> /ð/.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Axiem » 04 Oct 2016 14:55

Taurenzine wrote: zjh: this is the 's' sound in Pleasure, or the 'g' in Genre
I pronounce those two sounds differently: /plɛʒɹ̩/ and /d͡ʒɑnɹə/. Which do you mean?
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by qwed117 » 04 Oct 2016 19:55

Ahzoh wrote:What you called "held" are actually fricatives. And what "ch" and "j" are affricates, they begin as stops and end as fricatives: ch is actually t then sh.
We don't actually know how he's pronouncing them. He could be pronouncing a plosive /c ɟ/
Axiem wrote:
Taurenzine wrote: zjh: this is the 's' sound in Pleasure, or the 'g' in Genre
I pronounce those two sounds differently: /plɛʒɹ̩/ and /d͡ʒɑnɹə/. Which do you mean?
genre is generally pronounced /ʒɑnɹə/. That's just a peculiarity of your speech in particular.
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Axiem » 04 Oct 2016 20:12

qwed117 wrote:genre is generally pronounced /ʒɑnɹə/. That's just a peculiarity of your speech in particular.
Granted, but how do I know the OP doesn't have their own peculiarity for those words?
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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Frislander » 04 Oct 2016 20:14

qwed117 wrote:
Axiem wrote:
Taurenzine wrote: zjh: this is the 's' sound in Pleasure, or the 'g' in Genre
I pronounce those two sounds differently: /plɛʒɹ̩/ and /d͡ʒɑnɹə/. Which do you mean?
genre is generally pronounced /ʒɑnɹə/. That's just a peculiarity of your speech in particular.
I think /d͡ʒɑnɹə/ is possibly more widespread than you think.

Anyhow, if (s)he's carting out "pleasure" as a pronunciation example then that automatically means it's /ʒ/ being referred to.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Nachtuil » 04 Oct 2016 20:53

Taurenzine wrote: Thank you, I really Appreciate it [:D] I'll try to memorize the IPA ASAP.
The whole thing takes time but you can get by learning the more common ones. :P I would first become familiar with the symbols for the sounds in the languages you already know. Frieslander has helped you out quite a bit already. :)

Also it is sensible to memorise the main so called cardinal vowels. Most dialects of English have most of them anyway.

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Re: Please Comment on what I have

Post by Frislander » 04 Oct 2016 22:57

Nachtuil wrote:
Taurenzine wrote: Thank you, I really Appreciate it [:D] I'll try to memorize the IPA ASAP.
The whole thing takes time but you can get by learning the more common ones. :P I would first become familiar with the symbols for the sounds in the languages you already know. Frieslander has helped you out quite a bit already. :)

Also it is sensible to memorise the main so called cardinal vowels. Most dialects of English have most of them anyway.
Please, it's definitely Frislander, after the mythical island in the North Atlantic, and definitely not to be confused with Friesland where Frisian is spoken.

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