(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 10 Nov 2015 00:58

clawgrip wrote:I think narrative present is a valid form of present perfective. There is no internal structure because it is basically just a past story that you haven't bothered to add past tense to. e.g.:

"So I was getting in my car the other day, and this guy comes up to me and says 'Can you give me a lift?'"
Yes, I think that works too.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Nov 2015 03:30

Regarding all that, if my simple present tense doesn't have progressive notion, I should translate sentences like these in the present progressive tense?:

"I am happy" = I am being happy
"I become happy" = I am becoming happy
"You are either rich or poor" = You are being either rich or poor
"That is a big tree" = That is being a big tree
"There is a big tree in my garden" = There is being a big tree in my garden
"I don't write the letter today" = I am not writing the letter today
"The letter is written by me" = The letter is being written by me
"I go to the party, although it is raining" = I am going to the party although it is raining
"I will go to the party, but it is raining" = same

These are the kind of sentences I have to write to test my syntax and not an idea whether these are ongoing, habitual or what, especially that last two like what's the difference between "I go'" and "I will go" for that sentence.
Last edited by Ahzoh on 10 Nov 2015 03:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 10 Nov 2015 03:33

Translate them in a way that is natural and suits context. For example, if your simple present can mark both present progressive and present habitual, and maybe other things as well, then pick the one that makes sense. Also don't mess up English grammar unnecessarily. In almost all cases, "I am being happy" is pretty much wrong, so I see no reason to translate it this way.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Nov 2015 03:38

clawgrip wrote:Translate them in a way that is natural and suits context. For example, if your simple present can mark both present progressive and present habitual, and maybe other things as well, then pick the one that makes sense. Also don't mess up English grammar unnecessarily. In almost all cases, "I am being happy" is pretty much wrong, so I see no reason to translate it this way.
The context in the translations are not very helpful...

And "I am being happy" is demonstrating the progressive tense and to say "I am happy" in a habitual present is equivalent to saying "I am usually happy" or "I am often happy". These are the hypothetically equivalents in Vrkhazhian, so it is necessary to mess up English grammar. If the present progressive describes an action occurring at the very moment then the simple present must necessarily not do that. And if both tenses can express ongoing action, how do speakers know which to choose?

And then there are these two sentences:
I go to the party, although it is raining
I will go to the party, but it is raining
I cannot decide whether they refer to the same point in time or different ones.
Last edited by Ahzoh on 10 Nov 2015 03:58, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 10 Nov 2015 03:56

Ahzoh wrote:Regarding all that, if my simple present tense doesn't have progressive notion, I should translate sentences like these in the present progressive tense?:

These are the kind of sentences I have to write to test my syntax and not an idea whether these are ongoing, habitual or what, especially that last two like what's the difference between "I go'" and "I will go" for that sentence.
sometimes the translations won't have any differences..."John was mad that James said he loves his wife." :)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 10 Nov 2015 03:57

Normally translations should be naturalistic, unless you are attempting a literal translation to demonstrate a grammatical point.

"be" is a stative verb that, in its basic form, does not take progressive/continuous. It can be habitual or indicate only now. "Why are you smiling?" "Because I'm happy." is not habitual. On the other hand, "I am being happy" has other connotations; it implies that I am making an effort to appear happy even though I am not actually happy.

"I go to the party, although it is raining" is also unnatural and confusing, in my opinion. I don't know what you mean by it, so I can't tell you if those two mean the same thing.

I feel like you place too much emphasis on translating to and from English when you try to define how your language works. English need not exist at all for your language to be fully functional, so I don't think you need to worry about how translating will affect your language (because it won't).

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 10 Nov 2015 03:57

Ahzoh wrote:And "I am being happy" is demonstrating the progressive tense and to say "I am happy" in a habitual present is equivalent to saying "I am usually happy" or "I am often happy".
aka, "I am still happy" and "I am happy."

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Keenir wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:My other problem is what to do about the usage of the present tense in Vrkhazhian with respect to there being a present progressive and a future tense. It will likely be a habitual present but I wonder if a perfective present is possible.
would that be if you finish something in the present? "The new shopping center's construction is complete."

"Our empire has defeated the evil spirits."
That's perfect, not perfective.

EDIT:
HoskhMatriarch wrote: Also, "I decide to read a book" is not grammatical for me except for the narrative present: "It's 2:00 AM on Friday. I decide to read a book." But just saying "I decide to read a book" is wrong both in terms of aspect, and semantically ("I'm deciding to read a book" doesn't make much sense. Once you know what your decision is, you've already decided).
or if you're recounting to yourself, like i do:

"Okay, where did i leave my keys? First...
"I empty my pockets on the table.
"I picked a cereal to snack on.
"I changed my socks.
"I kicked the table over.
"I decide to read the book.
"I head for my car.
"I remember i don't have my keys."
*blank look*

Its three letters.
:)
Last edited by Keenir on 10 Nov 2015 04:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ahzoh » 10 Nov 2015 04:06

clawgrip wrote:"I go to the party, although it is raining" is also unnatural and confusing, in my opinion. I don't know what you mean by it, so I can't tell you if those two mean the same thing.
I didn't come up with these sentences, so I have no idea what whoever created them meant by it.
I feel like you place too much emphasis on translating to and from English when you try to define how your language works. English need not exist at all for your language to be fully functional, so I don't think you need to worry about how translating will affect your language (because it won't).
I'm filling out a grammar test, so all these sentences are supposed to test my grammar... but there isn't really any context or clarification, like this sentence: "I go to the party, except when it is raining". You can't tell whether it's progressive, future, or habitual, or even conditional.

I don't want my tenses to behave too much like my mother tongue, either I know how it is used or I go for how the statistical majority uses such tenses.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 10 Nov 2015 04:14

clawgrip wrote:Translate them in a way that is natural and suits context. For example, if your simple present can mark both present progressive and present habitual, and maybe other things as well, then pick the one that makes sense. Also don't mess up English grammar unnecessarily. In almost all cases, "I am being happy" is pretty much wrong, so I see no reason to translate it this way.
Yes. As Gregor Samsa one morning's out unpeaceful dreams awoke, found he self in his bed to to a monstrous vermin transformed. Woo woo, I am the bestest Kafka translator evers, because my translation is the most literal. Also, me is hot, is you hot?

Please, just translate things in a way so that they make sense, don't translate them in the "me is hot" way, even if your language literally says "me is hot".
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 10 Nov 2015 04:39

If it's a grammar test then I understand, but if that's the kind of sentence they provide then the test may need to be revised.

That translation thing can be fun.

Here is a very famous and celebrated line from Serizawa Keisuke's 1937 novel Yukiguni:

"When pass through long tunnel of national border, was snow country."

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by HoskhMatriarch » 10 Nov 2015 05:06

clawgrip wrote:If it's a grammar test then I understand, but if that's the kind of sentence they provide then the test may need to be revised.

That translation thing can be fun.

Here is a very famous and celebrated line from Serizawa Keisuke's 1937 novel Yukiguni:

"When pass through long tunnel of national border, was snow country."
So, I guess I can't go around making very bookstafftrue oversettings after all.

I always think we need more interesting sentences to translate. Also, more context, because there's generally going to be more than one way to translate things.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 10 Nov 2015 05:13

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
clawgrip wrote:"When pass through long tunnel of national border, was snow country."
So, I guess I can't go around making very bookstafftrue oversettings after all.
Romeo and House's boy are on opposite streambanks owing the nonobligation of a ? man.
dangit, i got almost all the way through...then realized i didn't know part of it...

Romeo and MacBeth ("Son Of" "House of") are rivals for the favor of a woman.

:)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 10 Nov 2015 05:38

I am a cat. Still name doesn't exist. Where born utterly entirely estimation does not attach. Remember only matter of crying meow meow in a place even what is dim and damp.

Maybe we should make a separate thread for this.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 10 Nov 2015 06:27

clawgrip wrote:I am a cat. Still name doesn't exist. Where born utterly entirely estimation does not attach. Remember only matter of crying meow meow in a place even what is dim and damp.

Maybe we should make a separate thread for this.
yes; that'd be fun.
(Translation Folder?)
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 10 Nov 2015 08:28

clawgrip wrote:If it's a grammar test then I understand, but if that's the kind of sentence they provide then the test may need to be revised.

That translation thing can be fun.

Here is a very famous and celebrated line from Serizawa Keisuke's 1937 novel Yukiguni:

"When pass through long tunnel of national border, was snow country."
Surely Yukiguni was written by Yasunari Kawabata?

And I love that line... [<3]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by clawgrip » 10 Nov 2015 10:38

Yeah, got my people mixed up.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Keenir » 10 Nov 2015 10:39

Contemplating possessives...

POSS1 -- "my dog" & "my carpet" & "my sonic screwdriver."

POSS2 -- "my eye" & "my foot" & "my spleen."

(POSS3 -- anything not POSS1 or POSS2)

"I give you my sword,"
however, would have my sword be POSS2, and the loyalty being sworn to, for the recipient-listener, would be POSS1.

The classic "Bob was mad when Jim said he loved his wife" would be, like in Russian, unambiguous, because it would say which he is which...
Bob(1) was mad(1) when Jim(3) said he(3) loved(3) his(1) wife(1)." {so its Bob's wife, having an affair with Jim}. Jim & his emotions are POSS3 because its unquestionably not POSS2, and Bob has already laid claim to POSS1.
{does it make more sense to have Jim's be POSS2 and just call it wonky, or is POSS3 viable/sensible?}


I know about alienable and inalienable possessives...but is there a name for the POSS3, or is it simply a split in one of the aforementioned ones?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 10 Nov 2015 15:49

HoskhMatriarch wrote:
Ahzoh wrote:My other problem is what to do about the usage of the present tense in Vrkhazhian with respect to there being a present progressive and a future tense. It will likely be a habitual present but I wonder if a perfective present is possible.
Additionally I don't know what tense to use when it comes to certain modal sentences, since verbs like "would" and could" could be either present or future.
I also don't know what tense to use for "decide" in the sentence "I decide to read a book". Nor when to use a subjunctive present and when to use a subjunctive future.
Perfective presents aren't possible, I think. Generally, things happen to them, like getting used as a future, or not at all. But I can't figure out what a present perfective would actually mean.

Also, "I decide to read a book" is not grammatical for me except for the narrative present: "It's 2:00 AM on Friday. I decide to read a book." But just saying "I decide to read a book" is wrong both in terms of aspect, and semantically ("I'm deciding to read a book" doesn't make much sense. Once you know what your decision is, you've already decided).
"You have to decide what to do now."
"Do I? OK: I decide to read a book"

Present (semantic) perfectives are what you get with performatives in general:
"With this ring, I thee wed"
"I hereby declare this shopping centre open"
"I forbid you to read that book"

They also occur with statives:
"I am eight foot tall"
"I hate Mongolia"
"You look like an elephant"

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Squall » 10 Nov 2015 21:06

I want to make a system of 10 vowels.
They are represented with vowel characters and double consonants tell the pronunciation of the vowel.
pipup /pipup/
pippup /pɪpup/

I have 8 vowels: /i ɪ u ʊ e ɛ o ɔ/

I need to add a pair for A. What is the most consistent option /ä ə/, /ä ɜ/, or /æ ɒ/?

If I added length, what inventory would be more plausible
/i: ɪ u: ʊ e: ɛ o: ɔ/ or /i ɪ: u ʊ: e ɛ: o ɔ:/?
/ä: ə/, /ä ə:/, /æ: ɒ/, /æ ɒ:/
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Creyeditor » 10 Nov 2015 21:20

Squall wrote:I want to make a system of 10 vowels.
They are represented with vowel characters and double consonants tell the pronunciation of the vowel.
pipup /pipup/
pippup /pɪpup/

I have 8 vowels: /i ɪ u ʊ e ɛ o ɔ/

I need to add a pair for A. What is the most consistent option /ä ə/, /ä ɜ/, or /æ ɒ/?
I really like the idea of /ä ɐ/, if you're going for a centralization contrast. If you're going for ATR contrast, I would suggest /ə/ as a tense vowel and /a/ as a lax vowel.
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