(Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

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Shemtov
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 24 Dec 2017 05:02

What effect would affricates becoming plain fricatives have on following vowels? Could they produce tone?
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Thrice Xandvii
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 24 Dec 2017 06:25

So for /tSa/ → /Sa/ you're asking what might happen to /a/? I'd think it'd be more likely for the preceding vowel to be impacted, but that is just my gut. Nothing might happen to /a/.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Shemtov » 24 Dec 2017 06:50

Thrice Xandvii wrote:
24 Dec 2017 06:25
So for /tSa/ → /Sa/ you're asking what might happen to /a/? I'd think it'd be more likely for the preceding vowel to be impacted, but that is just my gut. Nothing might happen to /a/.
What would happen to the proceeding vowel?
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 24 Dec 2017 06:57

Shemtov wrote:
24 Dec 2017 06:50
Thrice Xandvii wrote:
24 Dec 2017 06:25
So for /tSa/ → /Sa/ you're asking what might happen to /a/? I'd think it'd be more likely for the preceding vowel to be impacted, but that is just my gut. Nothing might happen to /a/.
What would happen to the proceedingpreceding vowel?
Here’s a possible scenario: affricates get reanalysed as clusters and then the stop debuccalises:

Vt͡ʃ → Vtʃ → Vʔʃ

The glottal stop might then elide and leave tone behind:

Vʔʃ → V[+tone]ʃ

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)

Or the glottal stop could shorten the preceding vowel and thereby change its quality

Vʔʃ → V[-long]ʃ → V2ʃ

Etc.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Thrice Xandvii » 24 Dec 2017 09:52

DesEsseintes wrote:
24 Dec 2017 06:57
Here’s a possible scenario: affricates get reanalysed as clusters and then the stop debuccalises:

Vt͡ʃ → Vtʃ → Vʔʃ

The glottal stop might then elide and leave tone behind:

Vʔʃ → V[+tone]ʃ

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)

Or the glottal stop could shorten the preceding vowel and thereby change its quality

Vʔʃ → V[-long]ʃ → V2ʃ
I had no direct knowledge that I could share when I posted, but the above are similar to what my gut was telling me might be a thing. I was suspect of Shemtov's original question, as it seemed unlikely that a vowel separated by another phoneme would be impacted overmuch by the deletion of a consonant that wasn't even touching it. Assuming Des is answering the question as intended, this makes a lot more sense.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Salmoneus » 24 Dec 2017 12:55

DesEsseintes wrote:
24 Dec 2017 06:57

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)
AIUI, it's argued that one is the result of a glottal stop, and the other is the result of a glottalised vowel (in this case resulting from a following glottal stop). However, since one can very easily become the other and in the case of historic languages there's no way to distinguish one from the other except by the later reflexes, this is effectively trivia in so far as the needs of conlang diachronics are concerned.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by DesEsseintes » 24 Dec 2017 14:15

Salmoneus wrote:
24 Dec 2017 12:55
DesEsseintes wrote:
24 Dec 2017 06:57

(Glottal stops can cause high or low tone; both are attested in Athabaskan)
AIUI, it's argued that one is the result of a glottal stop, and the other is the result of a glottalised vowel (in this case resulting from a following glottal stop). However, since one can very easily become the other and in the case of historic languages there's no way to distinguish one from the other except by the later reflexes, this is effectively trivia in so far as the needs of conlang diachronics are concerned.
Thanks for the info. The high and low tone outcomes of Navajo and Apache were explained similarly if I remember correctly. Do you know if there’s attestation for a glottal stop fronting (probably not the right word here?) to pharyngeal which would then become creaky voice which in turn would cause a low tone?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 27 Dec 2017 10:47

Frislander wrote:
23 Dec 2017 16:20
Omzinesý wrote:
23 Dec 2017 15:06
Frislander wrote:
23 Dec 2017 14:24
Omzinesý wrote:
23 Dec 2017 13:09
What could cause a word-initial resonant consonant to become prestopped (if there aren't prefixes to make to consonant not be initial).
Do you need a reason? Just prestop initial resonants.
Of course I do!
I want to create phonemes, not change all of them.
Maybe just before oral vowels? Or maybe when glottalised?
I was thinking about someting like fortitation of onsets of syllables with short vowels. The problem is just that those moraic processes usually affect the codae.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Frislander » 27 Dec 2017 12:55

Omzinesý wrote:
27 Dec 2017 10:47
I was thinking about someting like fortitation of onsets of syllables with short vowels. The problem is just that those moraic processes usually affect the codae.
Ah right. Well I might suggest trying some stressed-based things, like perhaps prestopping before a stressed syllable (I don't think it's attested in natlangs but I do know that gemination before stressed syllables is a thing).

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » 27 Dec 2017 18:28

Would it make much sense for /i/ and /u/ to lower to /e/ and /o/ whenever they are next to /x/?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 27 Dec 2017 18:54

LinguoFranco wrote:
27 Dec 2017 18:28
Would it make much sense for /i/ and /u/ to lower to /e/ and /o/ whenever they are next to /x/?
That's typically how uvulars affect high vowels. So I think I depends how back your /x/ really is. Of course a uvular fricative can cause the mentioned sound change and then become velar /x/.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 28 Dec 2017 18:08

Could I change some of Latin's prepositions (e.g. ante-) to become preverbs/coverbs that could later on become grammaticalized as auxilary verbs? I was thinking of deriving my past tense this way, but I don't know how realistic it is.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Lambuzhao » 28 Dec 2017 18:24

A) Sounds very interesting. How grammaticalized as 'pre/co-verbs'? Would they conjugate instead of the verb (following some kind of 'when 2 verbs go walking, only one does the talking' rule?). Would both conjugate (Naughty!) ?

B) Reminds me of Coptic. SOme of those pre/coverbs have to have come from PRPs. Especially ones like /menensa/, /ʃa/ and others I cannot arse myself to conjure out of Tattam's grammar. But some research thisaway might bear some comparative fruit.

Possibly also Middle Egyptian with the use of the PRP/Postclitic /ḫr/, and PRP /m/ coverbally.

Could you cast us a putative example, mayhaps?

[;)]

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Omzinesý » 28 Dec 2017 20:47

Ælfwine wrote:
28 Dec 2017 18:08
Could I change some of Latin's prepositions (e.g. ante-) to become preverbs/coverbs that could later on become grammaticalized as auxilary verbs? I was thinking of deriving my past tense this way, but I don't know how realistic it is.
Please, give an example.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Ælfwine » 28 Dec 2017 21:33

Something like

ante facto > anti=facto (this stage a coverb) > antifacto or factanto make-past-1ps

Here ante transitions from a preposition to coverb to an auxiliary and finally a morphological feature.

Not sure if I will go this route but it is interesting to play with Hungarian coverbs and preverbs.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 28 Dec 2017 21:55

Spanish -ía is from a verb that had once been before the main verb.... is that what converbs are? Some Italian dialects have a stronger form ...-ebbera, with various endings for different persons. Both are sufficed to the infinitive.

But I don't know how the same could happen with a preposition.... to get the person endings on, you'd have to get the speakers to start using the preposition as a verb.
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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Davush » 29 Dec 2017 01:08

Ælfwine wrote:
28 Dec 2017 21:33
Something like

ante facto > anti=facto (this stage a coverb) > antifacto or factanto make-past-1ps

Here ante transitions from a preposition to coverb to an auxiliary and finally a morphological feature.

Not sure if I will go this route but it is interesting to play with Hungarian coverbs and preverbs.
First I would expect 'ante' to be used in a more adverbial sense - adverbs becoming grammaticalised as tense/aspect markers is quite common. I think this is more plausible in this particular case if we imagine a lot of non-Latin speakers learning this as an L2 over a short period of time, leading to simplification of Latin's quite complex past-tense forms.

Using English as an analogy:
'I went before' meaning 'I went a little while ago', taking this further you could get 'I go before' > I go.before with 'before' eventually becoming a tense marker.

I usually only hear 'coverb' when referring to Chinese preposition-like verbs and related structures which confused me slightly to begin with, as it appears you're asking about adverbs becoming affixes.

Wikipedia does say "In relation to Hungarian, coverb is sometimes used to denote a verb prefix.[3] They are elements that express meanings such as direction or completion and so have a function corresponding to that of certain types of adverbs."

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by LinguoFranco » 29 Dec 2017 05:20

How would you handle fixed stress in a polysynthetic language? Let's say that the penultimate syllable is always stressed. Would this only affect the root of the word, or would each affix have a stress pattern? Does the root become unstressed, with the stress occurring instead on the next-to-last syllable of the sentence-word?

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Dormouse559 » 29 Dec 2017 06:29

That varies from language to language. But fixed stress, on its own, isn't too complex because it's, well, fixed. When you say "the penultimate syllable is always stressed" with no further qualifitication, I think of your final interpretation, that the second-to-last syllable of the entire word receives stress, regardless of the word's structure. A language could place stress based on the derivational/inflectional structure of a word, for example putting stress on the penultimate syllable of the root. Any morpheme, including the root, could be affected by having or not having stress; that will also depend on the language. For natlangs, as well as conlangs with diachronics, historical sound changes are a big factor in the nature and extent of that effect.

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Re: (Conlangs) Q&A Thread - Quick questions go here

Post by Pabappa » 29 Dec 2017 06:51

Does the root become unstressed, with the stress occurring instead on the next-to-last syllable of the sentence-word?

Inuktitut says yes:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_phonology#Stress

Finnish, though not polysynthetic, has many long words, and manages with a fixed root stress (always initial). So you could go either way, but my instinct and the feeling I get from working with my own polysynthetic conlang is that fixed stress is the best ... Which for your language would be penultimate.
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